Word.
Word.
Thank you. Atypical or worse.Originally Posted by pax
There's a reason a lot of the invisible people try to stay invisible... so what they say matters, so they're not marginalized, or treated that way. But that just keeps the problem going too. This boy's club is a huge catch-22.
So, this thread is offensive somehow?
Nobody is impressed by what you can't do. -THJ
Offensive is kind of a loaded term. It's hard to tell (especially in text) if someone saying "offensive" in a sarcastic PCUish way or if they're using it in the Merriam Webster sense of the word.
Having seen this conversation, to the letter, play out on another forum this was the takeaway:
People might not be "offended" in the PCU sense of the word, but repeated disregard for a core part of someone's identity tends to put them off. It doesn't have to be on purpose, and it didn't even register that what a lot of people were saying had been taken an an ill manner. In large part because nothing said was ever really wasn't meant to be insulting.
If you want to put the shoe on the other foot, try a politics analogy. Assume you're relatively conservative. Now assume you frequent Widget Forum. Only 99% of the inhabitants of Widget Forum are Berkley Liberals and a not uncommon occurrence are nuggets like "Yeah, and Bush didn't like about 9/11. I'm sure WidgetCo is telling the truth about their recall."
Taken individually the remarks are all throwaway comments not intended to be offensive. Taken collectively, it's kind of grating. If you say anything, the response is usually "it's just a joke bro, lighten up". Because no single comment on its own is that bad no one in the Berkley Liberal crowd sees much of a problem. After a while, though, it becomes more and more annoying.
How does this effect your participation at Widget Forum?
Last edited by jh9; 05-16-2015 at 05:45 AM.
jh9 got it in one.
Apologies if my post contributed to the negative aspect of the thread. pax and jh9's posts definitely put me in mind of my wife's characterization of the engineering world and how, at most companies, at least, it's a horrible old boys club. Apparently, as a woman, you have to either put up with the absurd assumptions that you don't know what you're doing or become a cast iron bitch in order to make it, neither of which is what she wants to do. Frankly, I hate that such situations exist at all, especially in the context of intellectual pursuits, where there is NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL between men's and women's abilities, no matter how much some people try to make it seem that there is.
Unfortunately, we men sometimes forget about that stuff, because we're not the ones living it, and then we shove our feet straight into our mouths as a result. Sorry.
4" Model 15 S&W .38 for bedside duty
2" J frame Model 442 .38 for purse
6" Colt Official Police .38 for Kitchen
I guess I don't see how this is grating. The OP didn't ask for recommendations for girls, he asked to see the guns that PF's female significant others carry. Most of the responses were guns that guys also carry, kinda showing that PF's members don't have "girlie guns." My wife carries and shoots the same kinds of guns I do, just usually smaller versions, since she is a fair bit smaller. Maybe the term "girls" was grating, since we are mostly talking about women, but I usually chalk that up to the part of the country the speaker is from. My liberal family and friends from back east would likely take offense, but here in the midwest and west, women seem to use the term a lot, and don't take offense when others do.
When members do ask for recommendations for women, though some are quick to recommend a specific brand, there are usually a number of posts saying "ask her", or "let her try a bunch out and pick one."
Maybe I'm just a sexist, but there are significant differences between men and women, and that is very true about shooting. I didn't think so, until my wife taught me how to teach female shooters. If a woman wants to shoot at a high level, learning how from a guy is usually a waste of time, and most female shooters don't seem to get it either. Tough situation to be in, but is is clearly the truth. Just like there are only a handful of firearms instructors I would go to or recommend for men, there are even fewer for women. It is what it is, doesn't matter what unit they came from.
RANT OFF, sorry.
"Maybe I'm just a sexist, but there are significant differences between men and women, and that is very true about shooting. "
The Big Difference is that women focus on getting the job done of getting hits on target, manly perceptions and notions be damned.
Males, sadly, go to the range first as a display of material prowess . Hitting the target and practicing safety is secondary to showing off their latest FDE Glock and Kimber Pro Whatever.
Worse, there's a disturbing level of ingrained sexism whenever a woman assumes the firing line. If you doubt that, watch what happens when a female shooter beats her male companion /date at the range. The guy sulks and then the excuses start flowing for why his girlfriend/fiancee outshot him.
The Minority Marksman.
"When you meet a swordsman, draw your sword: Do not recite poetry to one who is not a poet."
-a Ch'an Buddhist axiom.
SLG,
"Offensive" is -- as jh9 pointed out -- a really strong and loaded term. It's kind of a thought-stopper.
For the past 15 or 16 years, I have enjoyed the strong support and encouragement of good men who want to see me succeed as a shooter, as a writer, and (later) as a firearms instructor. If anyone wants to claim that the firearms training community as a whole does not welcome women, I can point to my own very positive experiences to tell them they're mistaken. For many years as a shooter, as a writer and an editor, and as a full time professional defensive handgun trainer, I have found the men of the shooting community to be good people almost without exception.
That doesn't mean y'all are perfect.
For the same past 15 or 16 years, I have participated in multiple gun discussion forums -- actively in some cases, a little more quietly in others. During that time, I've seen hundreds of women post a message or two on any given board, and then drift away without becoming serious contributors to the community. Some last as long as a year, but most last barely a month or two at the most. Some loudly announce the reasons they're leaving, but most don't. Most just stop posting, lurk in the background for awhile, and then move on.
There are reasons for that. One of those reasons is the constant and pernicious assumption that all serious members of the forum are guys. Or, you know, atypical women. Not real, genuine, feminine people; just either a guy or a not-really-normal woman. Another is the constant and pernicious assumption that all women are always beginning shooters, inexperienced and untrained, reluctant and clumsy, uncertain around tools and unfamiliar with shooting mechanics. It's almost impossible for a woman to be taken seriously as a shooter on a discussion board, unless she first proves her chops ... over and over and over again. As Tamara has.
And none of this is deliberate.
None of it is mean-spirited or rude or even "offensive" in the sense of someone setting out to annoy other people. Or being 'sexist' in a negative way. It's simply assumptions from good people who haven't thought it through and don't know any better.
That doesn't make it any less grating, as a cumulative effect. And it doesn't make women-as-a-whole any more likely to enjoy the discussions so much they stick around for the long haul. (Tamara is indeed atypical in that sense. But not because she's competent with firearms, and not because she likes to shoot.)
For myself, and to answer the OP's intended question: Although I don't have a wife and never will, I enjoy carrying and shooting my Glock 26, and I enjoy shooting and carrying my Glock 19. I have a safe full of other handgun brands and types, and a holster collection that I'd wager outnumbers that of anyone else here.
Maybe I should start my own thread: "My husband just got a gun. What guns do men like to shoot?"
pax,
Kathy
Kathy Jackson
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