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Thread: 1sthand commentary from someone who defended himself in a home invasion attempt

  1. #11
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    I proceeded to call 911, then my girlfriend who was on her way home after picking up her kids at day care, and then my unit to inform them of what happened.
    I am going to preface my post with the fact that I know my state's laws very well, but I hope this doesn't sound ignorant. I have a plan if I am involved in defensive shooting, but one thing that has always given me concern is having a lawyer come after. It sounds like the OP did not call one. I have a lawyer, and he will come if I need him. However, he is 3 hours away. I have done research into lawyers closer, but none have his level of experience with these types of situations.

    I have always been under the impression that even if it is a clear cut, legal, good shoot, that you should still call your lawyer and only give very basic information to the police until he or she arrives.

    If anyone here feels like helping me out, could you give me your plans after the defensive shooting takes place? I debated whether this was too off topic, but I think it fits, if I am mistaken please let me know.
    Last edited by BCA; 05-13-2015 at 05:46 PM.

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by BCA View Post
    I am going to preface my post with the fact that I know my state's laws very well, but I hope this doesn't sound ignorant. I have a plan if I am involved in defensive shooting, but one thing that has always given me concern is having a lawyer come after. It sounds like the OP did not call one. I have a lawyer, and he will come if I need him. However, he is 3 hours away. I have done research into lawyers closer, but none have his level of experience with these types of situations.

    I have always been under the impression that even if it is a clear cut, legal, good shoot, that you should still call your lawyer and only give very basic information to the police until he or she arrives.

    If anyone here feels like helping me out, could you give me your plans after the defensive shooting takes place? I debated whether this was too off topic, but I think it fits, if I am mistaken please let me know.
    The law of Self Defense book by Andrew Branca may be helpful. Also lawofselfdefense.com

    IMHO SA/mindset/tactics/proficiency and an after plan are equally important.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Peally View Post
    I remember seeing this on Arfcom when it happened, but I've since stopped visiting due to the Jesus-Christ-So-Many-Retards syndrome prevalent in the non-tech forums

    Hope he's still doing well, sounds like the post-incident mental game wasn't particularly fun as one would normally imagine but by all accounts he's been on top of the game.
    Doing as well as can be expected. With my training it was mostly muscle memory, but dealing with the traumatic changes has been a royal pain. I'm still being treated by the VA.

    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo_man View Post
    Were the thugs armed or unarmed?

    And good shoot, job well done.
    Thanks for the kind words. I honestly couldn't tell you. The deputies didn't tell me and I didn't want to know. They entered my home with force and that was all I needed to know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Haggard View Post
    I routinely see break-ins during the day when people do not answer the door and also do not make themselves known.

    Just an observation. Telling the guy you aren't interested will let them know someone is home. In my area I'd then also call in a suspicious car/person to the cops and have them come look for the vehicle since the behavior is very obviously casing the house for a break-in.
    It was only after the fact that I learned that they had previously struck some other homes in the area. If I had let them know someone was home then they would have moved on. As much as I wish it on nobody, I am happier it was me rather than a mother with her kids or an elderly lady/couple or someone who wasn't in a position to defend themselves as I was.

    Quote Originally Posted by EricM View Post
    I need to think about a better way to handle this at my house. Our dog barks ferociously when someone is at the door, and there is no way to quiet him and hold any kind of conversation through the door without physically hauling him away first. I feel vulnerable leaving the house to talk with an unexpected visitor -- especially since getting out the door requires a lot of attention to be focused on keeping the dog inside (reducing the ability to observe or react to the visitor). So I generally ignore them. Sounds like that approach has its downsides, thanks for your post.

    Regarding this specific incident, I would have found it very strange that the guy at the front door spent several minutes banging the door and ringing the doorbell. I'm curious what his ruse would've been had the resident come to the door, either right away, or after a couple minutes had elapsed. Not so easy to claim to be a salesman after several minutes of banging...not so easy to claim an emergency if your car is idling in the drive. Who knows, maybe it would've just been oh, sorry man, wrong house. Just makes me wonder whether he would've had a plan to get in the house if someone did answer, or if the sole objective was to determine if someone was home before going in the back. Interesting that the dog wasn't a significant deterrent -- assuming this house wasn't specifically targeted, one might think it'd just be easier to move on to the next one and avoid dealing with the dog.
    My dog is the same way. Not quite to the extent it is now, but I wouldn't have been able to hear much. It was odd but the first man looked quite young and there was the possibility that it was a teenager selling something for school maybe. Either way I wasn't interested. They picked my house at random and since they assumed nobody was home... Well... things progressed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Haggard View Post
    Normally if you answer the door it's "Is Bob here?" or some other BS, when Bob ain't home they leave.

    If little old lady maybe they push their way in.

    My advice to people is to yell through the door you are busy and they need to go away.
    Yes, letting them know someone was home would have probably cut the event off right there. However as I had previously said, better a trained soldier than someone who cannot defend them self. As I had noted, the gentleman from the fire department had let me know how grateful he was as they had roughed up his wife. So who knows, maybe they would have attempted to come in anyways if that had known I was there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_Jones View Post
    I pushed out the perimeter. I installed a fence and large/imposing gate (with a Ring Video Doorbell, as discussed in another thread) around the front of my house so that there is no direct access to any exterior doors from anyone off the street. The gate and all exterior doors are always locked unless we are walking through them. It gives me a little more distance and time (as well as video uploaded to the cloud thanks to the doorbell) to deal with unannounced visitors.

    I also have a few wireless IP security cameras installed outside. If I had the time (or a backhoe), I'd probably dig a moat too.
    All great defensive tools. The deputies and detectives did ask me if we had cameras, as well as went house to house to see if any neighbors did. Either way, I was able to describe the car and the male who ran. Didn't have to describe the headshot victim. The one who ran also happened to be the one who came to the front door first, so I got a good look at him. Plus they caught him down the street.

    Quote Originally Posted by TAZ View Post
    Reason # 102988462938474 why it's good to always have a defensive implement handy.

    I'm sorry the OP had to go through that event and I'm happy that all ended relatively well for him. Sucks that he had to pick up and move, but in the end it's probably better.

    I am truly shocked that the guys were gang related and had priors.

    When is our legal system going to pull its head out of its stinky ass and realize that 1 do over is enough. I'll suggest that instead of having Juvenile hall having first offender hall would be better in the long run. Completely segregate first time offenders and throw education, vocation whatever trading at them. The rest lock up for 100% time. Repeatedly letting these assholes loose and expecting them to behave different is textbook crazy.
    Thanks for the kind words. Couldn't agree more on the legal system part. When is enough finally enough? When someone actually dies?

    Quote Originally Posted by BCA View Post
    I am going to preface my post with the fact that I know my state's laws very well, but I hope this doesn't sound ignorant. I have a plan if I am involved in defensive shooting, but one thing that has always given me concern is having a lawyer come after. It sounds like the OP did not call one. I have a lawyer, and he will come if I need him. However, he is 3 hours away. I have done research into lawyers closer, but none have his level of experience with these types of situations.

    I have always been under the impression that even if it is a clear cut, legal, good shoot, that you should still call your lawyer and only give very basic information to the police until he or she arrives.

    If anyone here feels like helping me out, could you give me your plans after the defensive shooting takes place? I debated whether this was too off topic, but I think it fits, if I am mistaken please let me know.
    There is no right or wrong answer response to this. If you know your laws you can gauge the reaction of the LEOs who respond and then go from there.

    In my case the law was on my side, as well as the LEOs. That was never in question as they genuinely wanted to help me from the get go as soon as they arrived. They were worried about me, my safety, and my needs. all they wanted was the story from my point of view. The other sides did not matter. They forced entry and that sealed it for them.

    While they couldn't guard the home despite the threats, that's more because they didn't have the man-power.

  4. #14
    Site Supporter Hambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_P View Post
    In my case the law was on my side, as well as the LEOs. That was never in question as they genuinely wanted to help me from the get go as soon as they arrived. They were worried about me, my safety, and my needs. all they wanted was the story from my point of view. The other sides did not matter. They forced entry and that sealed it for them.
    This is where it pays to know the attitude of LE in your area. Here, in the same circumstances as Mike P, I would probably not call an attorney immediately. I've interacted with the SO and they have always been on the side of the good guy or victim.

    I'll also second Chuck's general advice to acknowledge people at the door. I also make myself conspicuous if I see someone at a neighbor's house, driving slowly, etc. I've called in more than one suspicious vehicle.

    About your dog going off differently than normal. I started reading "The Gift of Fear". It's about how we process information without really thinking about it. The author mentions that dogs have no secret way of evaluating people but react to their owner. The door bell ringing set off your alarms, which set off your dog's. It's happened with our dog and my wife. If she's scared, the dogs react much more aggressively.

    You did the right thing and you did well. Good job!
    "Gunfighting is a thinking man's game. So we might want to bring thinking back into it."-MDFA

  5. #15
    Very Pro Dentist Chuck Haggard's Avatar
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    Mike, I totally get your attitude towards "if they are going to kick a door, let them kick my door", I really do.

    Many/most of the people who I see not answer a door and then have it kicked in are the very people who I would not want having to face that, an example would be the 89 year old lady that used to live four houses down from me and had her back door kicked after hiding from the guy at the front door, hoping he would go away.


    Ref somebody brought up weapons; If my door was just kicked, and I had confronted two bad guys at my back door, and when challenged they advance, I don't care if they are armed or not, one or both of them is getting immediately shot.
    I am the owner of Agile/Training and Consulting
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  6. #16
    Great thread, we are indeed lucky to have this here. Thanks, Mike!
    #RESIST

  7. #17
    Site Supporter Irelander's Avatar
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    Agreed this is a great thread. Thanks for sharing your experience, Mike. Glad you had the training and mindset to make it out of that situation unharmed. You did the right thing. Take care of yourself.
    Jesus paid a debt he did not owe,
    Because I owed a debt I could not pay.

  8. #18
    Very Pro Dentist Chuck Haggard's Avatar
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    This sort of thing is also why I think the current state of door and frame construction in the US is criminal.

    On'es door should not blast open on one or two kicks.
    I am the owner of Agile/Training and Consulting
    www.agiletactical.com

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Hambo View Post

    About your dog going off differently than normal. I started reading "The Gift of Fear". It's about how we process information without really thinking about it. The author mentions that dogs have no secret way of evaluating people but react to their owner. The door bell ringing set off your alarms, which set off your dog's. It's happened with our dog and my wife. If she's scared, the dogs react much more aggressively.

    You did the right thing and you did well. Good job!
    Ive read the book, twice many years apart. The alarms that your body gives off are usually right and learning to focus on them is important.
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  10. #20
    Site Supporter Irelander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Haggard View Post
    This sort of thing is also why I think the current state of door and frame construction in the US is criminal.

    On'es door should not blast open on one or two kicks.
    Since purchasing a new house recently I have been thinking about this exact issue with door and frame construction. I put a new metal lined door in my home but the frame needs beefed up. I am planning to get the Door Devil system.

    http://doordevil.com/


    Of course the back of my home has a large sliding glass door. Not so easy to harden that entry.
    Jesus paid a debt he did not owe,
    Because I owed a debt I could not pay.

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