Working with a stubborn student question....

[Al T.]

Last week, I took a new guy out for some shooting help. We met at the range and I was sort of taken by surprise at the guys stubbornness.

Guy was about my age (50), had a new XD-M in .40 caliber. No holster. Had terrible accuracy generated by poor grip, poor trigger skills and no clue on stance. Resisted every modification for improvement.

However, we did get a break through and get him moving in the right direction. After an hour or so.

Pondering on what I did wrong, I think I failed to establish my credentials early on. I mentioned my schools and background, but this fellow was so new that it meant nothing to him. Looking back, failure on my part to recognize that.

My proposed solution (and I'm very open to comments, thoughts, criticism or suggestions) is to shoot a sort and simple diagnostic course of fire right after the safety briefing. First I shoot it, then the student shoots it. Obviously, if I shoot the diagnostic significantly better, this should, in theory, give the student the idea that I actually do know what I'm talking about.

Does this make sense?

[seabiscuit]

Does this make sense?

Makes sense to me. If I never saw my climbing coach climb, it'd be hard to take advice from him. But since I know he can crush every route in the gym, I'll listen to him when I'm working on a V3.

[ToddG]

Teaching and shooting are two completely different things. There are great shooters who can't teach. It sounds like this guy didn't know you so presumably he wasn't a buddy you're helping for giggles. Have you taken any instructor certification classes? Done any adult learning theory study?

Was he being stubborn in that he expressed an unwillingness to change, or was he simply not doing things the way you showed him?

If the former, my position has always been a shrug of the shoulders and a pat on the back. If someone wants to pay to take a class and then ignore what's being taught, that's on him. It doesn't bother me in the least. "I don't want to do it that way" is a perfectly acceptable response from a student. It's his time, his money, his gun, and his life. My job is to show him the better way, explain why it's better, and help him learn how to do it that way if he chooses to.

If he simply failed to do it right, it could be any variety of problems.

FWIW, I start most classes exactly as you describe, running students through the FAST. For my part, I'm doing it because is allows me to assess each individual student's skill level and safety protocols to make corrections as necessary before getting into the meat of the class.

[Jay Cunningham]

Guy was about my age (50)

Well right there makes it no surprise to me at all. Working with guys in this age range (especially who were "in the military") is for me absolutely the most challenging, frustrating demographic.

[rsa-otc]

Last week, I took a new guy out for some shooting help. We met at the range and I was sort of taken by surprise at the guys stubbornness.

Guy was about my age (50), had a new XD-M in .40 caliber. No holster. Had terrible accuracy generated by poor grip, poor trigger skills and no clue on stance. Resisted every modification for improvement.

However, we did get a break through and get him moving in the right direction. After an hour or so.

Pondering on what I did wrong, I think I failed to establish my credentials early on. I mentioned my schools and background, but this fellow was so new that it meant nothing to him. Looking back, failure on my part to recognize that.

My proposed solution (and I'm very open to comments, thoughts, criticism or suggestions) is to shoot a sort and simple diagnostic course of fire right after the safety briefing. First I shoot it, then the student shoots it. Obviously, if I shoot the diagnostic significantly better, this should, in theory, give the student the idea that I actually do know what I'm talking about.

Does this make sense?

I do something similar. I shoot the gun upside down, sideways, and with just the trigger finger and thumb holding the weapon. Expends a total of 90 seconds and 6 rounds. It establishes several things.

1. I can shoot well. Often I will get holes touching or through the same hole.
2. you don't need to choke the shit out of the gun it will not come out of your hands (unless it's a 44 mag or S&W 500 :-) )
3. Trigger control and sights count.

[Kyle Reese]

Well right there makes it no surprise to me at all. Working with guys in this age range (especially who were "in the military") is for me absolutely the most challenging, frustrating demographic.

Agreed & this has been my experience as well.

[ToddG]

Really? I'll be honest, I do not find one particular demographic more or less "teachable" than any other. I've had young students who'd listen and young students who wouldn't; old guys who'd listen and old guys who wouldn't; girls who'd listen and girls who wouldn't. Etc.

You do need to know how to approach different people. A retired Marine colonel probably doesn't respond to the same style as a 20-something housewife whose husband dragged her to class. But students are individuals, not members of a demographic.

[Jay Cunningham]

Well, that's because you're awesome Todd. Geez... everybody knows that.

[Jay Cunningham]

OP, my advice would be to get real Alpha right up front.

The last 50 year old guy that I worked with was a Vietnam Vet (he kept telling me this) who has been shooting PPC for a long time. He was a pretty accurate shooter but had a terrible grip, poor gun handling, and was generally unsafe with his trigger and muzzle control.

During a ball-and-dummy drill he had a squib load (from one of his "never fail" reloads of course) and immediately locked his gun back and then pointed it at his own face to check. When I jumped to try and stop him he started to physically fight with me.

By all rights I could have thrown him off the range but I decided instead to go super-Alpha on him and dress him down. This worked and we were able to finish safely and event-free.

May work in your instance, but consider it case-by-case.

[Al T.]

Have you taken any instructor certification classes? Done any adult learning theory study?

Todd, I have taken the very basic NRA instructor course and have a background in training from the .mil. However, it occurs to me that I've always had rank or paying or younger students. Peer-to-peer is sort of new. Adult learning theory is new to me, so I'll get locked in on some books from the library and expand my knowledge base.

Was he being stubborn in that he expressed an unwillingness to change, or was he simply not doing things the way you showed him?

Not doing things. Sort of being "uncomfortable getting out of his comfort zone". Breakthrough was working the trigger reset. Forced him to maintain his grip and he tightened up his shot group immediately. At that point I had him.

Rsa-otc, I can do that. Alan Shebaro does something similar to demonstrate the triangle of grip/stance, trigger control and sight alignment.

Jay, agree completely and would add cops to that group. Our state academy has a very poor firearms training cadre and it shows.