Looking for opinions on Sayoc Tactical (for firearms training)

[voodoo_man]

Alternately: If a legit offer, it gives people an opportunity to see for themselves and report back with an honest AAR here that is based on more than conjecture and by people who don't have a dog in the fight.

I posted two AAR's which were honest.

You should also note that pup town's posts on this forum have been negative since he joined. If he isn't putting something down he isn't posting. Hell he PM'd me during this whole bit, calling me dumb, and insulting STG, its instructors and me for defending them based on my factual experiences.

I have blocked him since I would rather not have my forum experience distorted by someone who is constantly negative.

[Thomas Kier]

It is great to see how professional everyone here is, it would be great to get out to train with you guys. I'm not opposed to setting up classes just from this forum. We teach all over the country so if any of you guys are close to each other or if we can work out a central location we could set it up.

Something else that could work is we could just look at where we will be for contracts and set up the weekend before or after and do a class out there, in the middle of may, we will be out at Fort Campbell KY, later we will be around Va beach, and Fort Bragg. Anyone who is close to these areas we can set up a weekend class, because the contracts only run during the week.

It would be a 1.0 class
Two day, sun up to sundown
750-800 rounds
Rough Class outline

Safety and range protocols
Shoot the (200 drill) cold assessment
Load and unload protocols and why ?
Various press checks, and why or why not?
Ready Positions
Marksmanship Fundamentals (shooting at each topic point)
Stance
Grip
Sight alignment
Sight Picture
Breathing
Trigger control
Follow through
Recovery
Trigger control drill (Firing Squad drill)
Two handed
Strong hand only (SHO)
Other strong hand only (OSHO)
The need to balance speed and accuracy and ways to do that?
The four sighting methods for pistols (shooting each type and range)
Body alignment and proprioception (contact to 3 yards)
Back Plate or Slide Shadow (2.5 to 7 yards)
Front sight only (5 to 12 yards)
Front sight and rear sight alignment (9 to 25 yards)

Working Lunch - Mindset talk, The aspects of Conflict
Gear talk, holster choices?

Shoot a 200 drill
Building a draw stroke (shooting at each step)
Shoot the six dot drill
One shot on press out drill
Controlled doubles follow through and recoil management
Intro to positional shooting (shoot at each pos and shoot with time pressure)
SHO
OSTO
Kneeling
Prone
Supine
Shoot the 700
Finish day one, closing talk Q and A

Start day Two
Cold 200 drill
200 drill
Ball and dummy drills, recycle partner
Ball and dummy 200 drill
Review draw stroke
One shot from holster for time
Malfunction drills and immediate actions
Reloads
Combat (shooting)
Tactical (shooting)
Speed (shooting)
Admin
Farnam drill 10 reps no time
Farnam drill for time 3 reps

Working lunch - Mindset talk Feeder vs receiver, Readiness.

200 drill
Shoot positions with and without time pressure
700 drill
Shoot all four pistol sighting methods and ranges
CSAT hostage target drill
Walk back on paper finding holds
Walk back drill
Final 200
Closing talk, Q and A

[BehindBlueI's]

Middle of May would be real tough for me, although Ft. Campbell wouldn't be out of the question distance wise. Prior training obligations and then cancelled/restricted days off due the Indy 500 would make it nearly impossible from the 8th through the 25th. June is more open. July sucks, again events causing restricted/cancelled days off. August is pretty open.

[Thomas Kier]

I see Mr. Town you are still upset because you believe you belong to that annoying group of people described by me in my post. I did not say you are in that group and really don't see anyone here who would fit in that group, it's hard to say unless you meet people and spend some time with them what they are like and therefore it would be premature for me to judge people here.

I tried to point out that I did a poor job explaining some things but I was not "Lying" that is, saying something with the intent to deceive. Being a liar is a serious thing and not something I would want to be seen as. Everyone of my Instructors has a Tactical background in the areas he teaches. My Tactical background is developing and teaching skills and tactics for the last 15 years. Teaching hundreds of military and Law Enforcement over thousands of hours, spanning dozens of topics, with great success. During this time I have stayed current on gear and tactics by a constant interaction with operators and end users at the same time builting relationships with top people in the industry in a multitude of areas. But I feel this is such a poor method of really getting to know me, come to a class.

You know, talking to people on the Internet is not like talking to them face to fac,e it is hard to really get to know them. Some people are more polite on the Internet because they realize the most efficient use of this type of communication is to be clear and polite, but most people seem to become more rude or overly bold in the way they speak through the computer. Saying things they would neversay in real life. I hope you understand I don't want to have bad feelings between us, I'd like to be friends. So if you show up at the free class please introduce yourself so we can really get to know each other better and get past this unpleasantness.

I don't know your real name, so when you walk up to me, just call me a LIAR so I know who you are.

[BJJ]

Tom,
I would come to a free class at Fort Campbell. If you get it set up, please post it on the forum. Very generous offer on your part. And I am impressed with your even keeled responses in this thread.

[WobblyPossum]

I'm very impressed with the way Mr. Kier has handled this thread. I don't see the offer of a free class as buying support at all. It seems like a "put up or shut up" challenge. He's giving the people who have said negative things about him and his company a chance to see how/what he teaches first hand. Obviously people aren't likely to shell out $400 for a class they don't think will be good but if it's free, maybe they give it a chance. I know I'm more likely to give an opinion about something if I've actually had experience with it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LittleLebowski]

Guys, the mods counted 35 individuals who posted in this thread before Tom made his offer.

Strongly suggest if you're serious about taking a class, that someone take charge and help Tom do the legwork for your area. Otherwise, go to Tom's area.

[jnperrings]

Funny how Pup is now trying to incent other readers of this thread to be insulted along with him. Meanwhile, Pup's the one who started this thread, then somehow had an entire dossier on STG ready and available to post. Time waster.

My name is John Perrings. I am one of the STG instructors (the really, really good looking one) that Pup included in his "expose" of STG. I do not have a military or LEO background, but work under Tom Kier, teaching blade / combatives to the groups that have already been mentioned.

I bring this up for two reasons - 1) so you can hear from another STG instructor and get a better feel for who we are. And 2) because, as Tom mentioned, not all STG instructors are firearm instructors. STG have a "bench" of SME's who are brought in based on the desired training results of the client. I wonder if Pup has ever even had a client.

A word on my experience with Tom: I have been training under Tom Kier for over 10 years and I am still learning new things from him. This is because of his experience, how he thinks, and, as a result, who we get to associate with in order to share knowledge and ideas. You can't always understand someone or what you can learn from them by their resume. No one I know has ever said meeting Tom was a waste of time.

Tom has already posted a more comprehensive outline of what an STG course would look like. But it seems like the group might like to see something from another student's perspective (Thanks, Voodo, for posting yours). For the group's consideration, here is my overview of what I learned at a Warrior 1.0 Pistol course:

Partial Course Summary:

• 4 Rules of Safety
• Weapons handling, manipulation, Load/Unload
• Integrated system of fire
• Stance
• Grip
• Trigger management
• Sighting
• Bullseye shooting drills
○ 200
○ 700
• CQ shooting drills
○ Farnham
• MINDSET
○ 4 Rules of Safety Applied
○ Readiness Triangle
○ Warrior Mindset and mental management during training

While some of the technical details of this class might differ somewhat from other programs, It is this last bulletpoint - MINDSET - that you might find to be very different and informative. It is one of the things that I find to be the most impressive (and challenging) in the Sayoc system, as a whole. It takes what you're doing beyond the firearm.

The MINDSET discussions are handled both formally and informally, throughout the class and are integrated into the physical training.

Performance:

I had attended two handgun training modules, with another well-respected instructor, prior to attending Warrior Pistol 1.0. I made significant improvements over my then-current skills in accuracy and weapons handling.

Partial set of my personal results:

200 - Student benchmark = 180
My 200 Baseline: 135
My 200 Test: 185 - Pass

Farnham - Student Benchmark = 12 seconds
My Farnham Baseline: 18.0 seconds
My Farnham Test: 13.5 seconds - Fail

This is pretty high-level, but I hope this post helps the individuals in this group to assess whether or not it will make sense to consider a class and see what Sayoc is all about. I am happy to help answer any questions you may have about my experience with Tom and/or Sayoc.

Best regards,

John Perrings

[orionz06]

Also, he called most of his open enrollment students "Internet Warriors, pissy bloggers, gun buffs and wannabe Former Action Guys...(who are) mostly thin skinned, crybaby penny pinchers, who over estimate their ability to shoot." (You realize he's talking about us, right?) I didn't find that impressive.

But he's not wrong. I'm quite pleased someone came out and said it.

[BehindBlueI's]

Guys, the mods counted 35 individuals who posted in this thread before Tom made his offer.

Strongly suggest if you're serious about taking a class, that someone take charge and help Tom do the legwork for your area. Otherwise, go to Tom's area.

I am certainly serious, but I also don't have the time to take lead and have one more thing on my plate. If there's a class within 5 hours of Indianapolis on a weekend I'm free, I'll be there.