I've been wanting to take a good force on force class but have not had luck finding one near PA (PA, OH, VA, WV). The only one I can find is "The Fight" at Tac Response in TN. I am curious to know what are some changes to your training as a result of taking a FoF class? Have you added more 1-hand shooting drills? 1-hand reload drills? More shooting on the move inside 10yards? Drills where you seek cover instead of engaging in the open? What have you stopped training?
Hit me up with your contact info.
I think it really depends on the context of the FoF, and if that context matches the situations you find yourself in.
My realization from my first FoF training was that there is a wide range of crucial skills needed to handle things before it "goes to guns."
I'd rather be an Avoidance Grand Master than an ARGHS Grand Master
Originally Posted by beneyes
I did ECQC, and Todd Rassa's Defensive Knife and Pistol twice.
Changes/Lessons from taking those classes...Oh, boy.
1) I like appendix carry now because it is easier to fight over your gun while it is in front of you than off to the side.
2) Strength matters. Endurance matter. They matter more than slick reloads, shooting at distance and being blazingly fast. That said, I was able to get 3 to the body and 1 to the face on a charging knifer in Todd's class when I got surprised - so, speed, accuracy and technique still matter...but the ability to fight two people up close matter more in my opinion.
3) Your fingers do not turn to flippers and folders can be drawn, opened and used IF you are able to fight. Waved knives aren't necessary if you are able to stabilize the situation, make space, draw the knife, open it and go to work.
4) Familiarity with resistance facilitates #3.
5) Skills do not integrate unless trained in an integrated manner. My verbals blow goats under stress. That shouldn't be because I'm a lawyer...but I'm not usually trying to talk to people who I'm considering painting with a sims gun...so I'm going to do more decision and interaction heavy FoF to integrate my verbal skills into my physical skills.
5a) In training, you make payments on skills...and you get what you pay for. But only what you pay for. If you are training to do something in one particular way, and have trained to the point you can do it subconsciously - You WILL do that. even if you don't want to, and it causes you to be on the floor rolling around with 2 people who want your gun, but aren't keen on you giving them the knife as well.
The biggest change was my understanding of how stressful the decision making in a violent incident can be.
In one drill, I got attacked right out of the gate, slammed against a wall by two people with my un grabbed....and I was shocked how calm I was. Secure my gun from guy #1, draw knife, cut #2 off me, stab guy #2, cut #1's knee, then his arm off my gun - of good, they are off me, draw gun, shoot #1, transition to #2...
It was..math.
But in another drill I wasn't given a clear situation. I was confronted by an aggressive, abrasive person who I had to verbally interact with, and being keyed up from other scenarios..."Why the hell is my gun out and I'm drawing down on a gun in an argument?? What do I do now?"
Decision making is king, but difficult under stress, so that's what I'm looking to focus on more now.
10-32 Solutions & Milwaukee COPs
3-13 & 3-14-2015
Milwaukee, WI
I have recognized for some time that FoF Decision Making was a weakness in my self-defense training. When an opportunity to participate as an opposing force role player in a concealed carry decision making class popped up I jumped on it. I honestly didn’t know what to expect, either from the students or the instructors. I took quite a number of things away from the experience.
The training was a joint effort between Chad Halvorson of 10-32 Solutions and Kevin Eyre of Milwaukee Community Outreach Partners. Both are active Wisconsin Law Enforcement Officers and experienced firearms’ instructors and students. In the class students were faced with a scenario that included a decision to or not to get involved with a situation and shoot or don’t shoot if it escalated to that point. An after-incident 911 call may or may not have been included. High quality, licensed, airsoft S&W M&P pistols were used by the students and role-players. Hits from these 6mm projectiles can range from almost unnoticeable on 3 layers of clothing and stinging on bare hands to a good-sized goose egg and 5mm scab from the one I received to a bare forehead. Appropriate eye, lower face and neck protection were provided for the course.
Here are my take-aways from a role player perspective. Foremost, I was impressed with the overall decision-making exhibited by the students. The students that I interacted with are citizens who take the carry and use of a firearm seriously and seek training to be responsible in doing so.
I was also fortunate enough to have Chad run me through a set of mini-scenarios based on a drill used by the Wisconsin Department of Justice before class on the second day. In one scenario I confronted someone in my house/on my property that, when engaged, threw something in my general direction. The intent was for the item not to hit me and it didn’t. I shot the role player. My in-the-moment thought was that I had no idea what the individual was throwing or whether it would harm me. At the time I shot, when the item had just left the role player’s hand, I didn’t know the item was going to miss hitting me. In retrospect I personally believe this was a No Shoot situation. That is what I personally believe.
Simulated use of 911 reporting by students; whether to report an incident without confrontation, during a confrontation or following a confrontation; was almost universal. Preparing in your mind what you intend to say to a 911 operator following a defensive gun use is EXTREMELY important. Students reported racing hearts and other heightened physical symptoms during the scenarios. In one case a harried student reported to the simulated dispatcher that the just-shot attacker had a gun, but actually had a bludgeon which was clearly visible 8 feet away. As Kevin and Chad noted, you must give dispatch and the police enough to work from in order to respond. However, my thought from training and reading is that not accidentally incriminating yourself for the use of an overzealous district attorney is of critical importance, also.
That thing you read about where you will likely be shot in the hands? I found it to be true. I was shot several times in the left hand which, if real, may have incapacitated one or both of my hands and firearm. I also specifically noted that I hit Chad in the hand while he was running me through some of the mini-scenarios. Realizing that and training to retrieve a dropped or backup weapon seems prudent.
I did not previously know how the scenarios would end. I didn’t know how FoF was generally run. Without giving anything away I’ll say that Kevin and Chad have, in my opinion, the right mind-set for running the class and ending the scenarios. Confidence in these two, in and of itself, is a reason I held out to participate with 10-32 Solutions and M-COPs rather than another local-ish training group.
The use of combined tactics such as stepping off the line of attack and carrying a flashlight were reinforced. When confronted with a knife attack in the mini-scenarios I did not step off the line of attack. Although I’ve heard of it, I don’t believe I’ve ever trained on it. It is possible, but I don’t remember it. When the training environment required it there were many students who readily had flashlights available.
The use of airsoft can be a polarizing discussion among alpha-dog operators. Chad and Kevin explained their reasoning for the use of airsoft over simunitions; less safety gear, the ability to communicate easily and cost were some of those factors. My personal opinion is that the use of airsoft was a valid tool that met the objectives of the training.
I want to note, specifically, that the class was run safely. Student and instructor carried weapons were removed and locked up before class and controls were implemented to insure no weapons entered the training area. In the end I consider myself fortunate to have been able to make use of this opportunity.
*Note & Disclaimer: I’m always hesitant to write a full AAR when assisting the instructors so I’ve changed the format from my normal feedback on the event from a customer perspective to more of a lessons’ learned. I was compensated for my participation as a role player and assistant.
"Draw fast, shoot well," Mike W.
Cool beans dm, I never really put two and two together and realized quality FoF instruction in WI was a trip to Milwaukee away.
Semper Gumby, Always Flexible
Reply With Quote