The philosophy behind carry rotation or no rotation?

[Red Leader]

The responses I was getting from most folks in the "What are you carrying on you right now" thread were interesting. You guys really got me thinking about this idea or 'no rotation'.

I had listed that I carry the XD45c and in rotation, I have a S&W 3953.

I guess to clarify, I don't switch between pistols day-to-day, and right now I don't even really carry the 3953 - I'm waiting for the exact same style of holster to use it with. I just happen to shoot better with the 3953 so it will probably replace the XD45, and it doesn't dig into my side as much.

However, I'm interested in hearing the different schools of thought on this one. I can absolutely see where the wisdom from the 'no rotation' comes from. I can't even imagine trying to switch between the XD45 and, lets say, a 1911 where the manual of arms is completely different. The danger is that you get used to one system, then take with you another system with different rules, and your muscle memory gets out of whack with the new system, which can really put you in danger if your muscle memory cannot recall a manual disengagement of the thumb safety.

In that case, I see the point. However, even if I was to rotate pistols, day to day, I am still switching from 'pick it up and pull the trigger' to 'pick it up and pull the trigger', whereas both would be carried in the exact same type of holder, in the exact same place. With that in mind, I can also see why rotating the position in which you carry could be disastrous as well - imagine going for your side arm when you need it and...its not there? (its in a different position). In that case, I do think switching types of holsters or positions, etc, could perhaps have even more bearing in a stressful situation?

But I wanted to ask some more questions and go deeper. When someone says 'No rotation' do they mean they would never rotate a carry firearm day to day, or maybe week to week, or year to year? Is it just the act of going back and forth between different-enough firearms in a short enough period of time that this gets problematic?
If someone was to carry a glock 21 for 5 years then decide to switch their carry to an FNP45, wouldn't there be the same issue, at least soon after the switch? Certainly we have changed our carry arms at some point to coincide with our needs - we get a new pistol, test out a new pistol, etc - and is there a line between safe and dangerous when we are talking about familiarity, manual of arms, and muscle memory? Is that line solely dependent on the individual?

Taking it a step further, if we were to assume that rotating between different firearms may be a liability in an adrenaline dump situation, where does that leave those who own more than 1 type of pistol, or who enjoy range time with said pistols (I'm sure this is most of us)? Someone carrys a Glock 17 but their favorite 'range' toy is a 1911. Every single time we spend X amount of time with a firearm dissimilar enough to our own carry piece, are we messing with our muscle memory? If the theory of no-rotation holds water, shouldn't that mean that we should ideally finish out every range session with our CCW so that we reestablish that muscle memory?

This is not a critique of no-rotation at all, actually I think the idea it pretty legitimate. However, if we take it seriously and apply it to our philosophy of carry, shouldn't we also examine the way the concept of 'no rotation' applies in every capacity, even to our range guns and time spent with other firearms that are completely different from what we are expecting to be able to pull out and use in an instant if needed?

Wow did I just write all that? I guess it really got me thinking Please help me learn. I would love to hear thoughts on this topic, especially from any firearms teachers or instructors.

[JDM]

The responses I was getting from most folks in the "What are you carrying on you right now" thread were interesting. You guys really got me thinking about this idea or 'no rotation'.

I had listed that I carry the XD45c and in rotation, I have a S&W 3953.

I guess to clarify, I don't switch between pistols day-to-day, and right now I don't even really carry the 3953 - I'm waiting for the exact same style of holster to use it with. I just happen to shoot better with the 3953 so it will probably replace the XD45, and it doesn't dig into my side as much.

However, I'm interested in hearing the different schools of thought on this one. I can absolutely see where the wisdom from the 'no rotation' comes from. I can't even imagine trying to switch between the XD45 and, lets say, a 1911 where the manual of arms is completely different. The danger is that you get used to one system, then take with you another system with different rules, and your muscle memory gets out of whack with the new system, which can really put you in danger if your muscle memory cannot recall a manual disengagement of the thumb safety.


This is the first, and perhaps the largest concern.

In that case, I see the point. However, even if I was to rotate pistols, day to day, I am still switching from 'pick it up and pull the trigger' to 'pick it up and pull the trigger', whereas both would be carried in the exact same type of holder, in the exact same place. With that in mind, I can also see why rotating the position in which you carry could be disastrous as well - imagine going for your side arm when you need it and...its not there? (its in a different position). In that case, I do think switching types of holsters or positions, etc, could perhaps have even more bearing in a stressful situation?


My gun is in the same place, in the same holster, whenever i leave the house.

But I wanted to ask some more questions and go deeper. When someone says 'No rotation' do they mean they would never rotate a carry firearm day to day, or maybe week to week, or year to year? Is it just the act of going back and forth between different-enough firearms in a short enough period of time that this gets problematic?

If someone was to carry a glock 21 for 5 years then decide to switch their carry to an FNP45, wouldn't there be the same issue, at least soon after the switch? Certainly we have changed our carry arms at some point to coincide with our needs - we get a new pistol, test out a new pistol, etc - and is there a line between safe and dangerous when we are talking about familiarity, manual of arms, and muscle memory? Is that line solely dependent on the individual?


naturally, I've switched guns, I'm sure everyone has. When I said I didn't rotate, i was saying that i usually carry the same gun for substantial amounts of time (~2 years average). when i do switch, its a gradual process of familiarization/ reliability testing/ holster getting (for lack of a better term). I don't jump from one platform to another on a daily/ weekly/ monthly basis.


Taking it a step further, if we were to assume that rotating between different firearms may be a liability in an adrenaline dump situation, where does that leave those who own more than 1 type of pistol, or who enjoy range time with said pistols (I'm sure this is most of us)? Someone carrys a Glock 17 but their favorite 'range' toy is a 1911. Every single time we spend X amount of time with a firearm dissimilar enough to our own carry piece, are we messing with our muscle memory? If the theory of no-rotation holds water, shouldn't that mean that we should ideally finish out every range session with our CCW so that we reestablish that muscle memory?


I don't personally feel that if i shoot my P99 or 1076 or whatever for a 200rd fun run at the range it will have an appreciable impact on the way i handle the gun I've shot many thousands of rounds through, done hours of dry practice with (hopefully) and have carried for many many days. This is a bit like saying if you borrow a friends stick shift, you'll forget how to drive your automatic. YMMV.

This is not a critique of no-rotation at all, actually I think the idea it pretty legitimate. However, if we take it seriously and apply it to our philosophy of carry, shouldn't we also examine the way the concept of 'no rotation' applies in every capacity, even to our range guns and time spent with other firearms that are completely different from what we are expecting to be able to pull out and use in an instant if needed?

Wow did I just write all that? I guess it really got me thinking Please help me learn. I would love to hear thoughts on this topic, especially from any firearms teachers or instructors.

Replies in blue.

[jslaker]

In that case, I see the point. However, even if I was to rotate pistols, day to day, I am still switching from 'pick it up and pull the trigger' to 'pick it up and pull the trigger', whereas both would be carried in the exact same type of holder, in the exact same place.

But with different trigger weights, trigger breaks, trigger resets, sight pictures, recoil impulses, etc.

But I wanted to ask some more questions and go deeper. When someone says 'No rotation' do they mean they would never rotate a carry firearm day to day, or maybe week to week, or year to year?

Personally, I mean day-to-day.

Is it just the act of going back and forth between different-enough firearms in a short enough period of time that this gets problematic?

It's mostly that handguns are so nuanced that you can't be completely proficient on multiple platforms at the same time, IMO.

If someone was to carry a glock 21 for 5 years then decide to switch their carry to an FNP45, wouldn't there be the same issue, at least soon after the switch?

It would take time to build familiarity with the new system, yes. I'm considering a switch from the HK I've carried the past couple of years to a G19 at the moment, for example. If I go through with it, I expect that it'll take me some time to build up familiarity with the Glock, and intend to plan around that accordingly.

Someone carrys a Glock 17 but their favorite 'range' toy is a 1911. Every single time we spend X amount of time with a firearm dissimilar enough to our own carry piece, are we messing with our muscle memory? If the theory of no-rotation holds water, shouldn't that mean that we should ideally finish out every range session with our CCW so that we reestablish that muscle memory?

Shooting something different on occasion isn't going to wipe out your familiarity with your carry platform. I've got a P226 that I take to the range every so often because I find it enjoyable to shoot. The bulk of my range trips and trigger time are centered around my USP since that's what I carry, though.

One caveat I'll throw in is that while I'm in the "no rotation" crowd, I don't have as much of a problem with changing out weapons within the same platform. i.e., if your normal carry piece is a G19, I don't think moving to a G26 or G17 if circumstances dictate it is too big of a deal. I'd still be inclined to spend most of my range time on the gun that gets carried most in those cases, however.

[TCinVA]

In that case, I see the point. However, even if I was to rotate pistols, day to day, I am still switching from 'pick it up and pull the trigger' to 'pick it up and pull the trigger', whereas both would be carried in the exact same type of holder, in the exact same place.

...but the primary control mechanism of the weapon, the trigger, is very different between those two weapons. The mag buttons are in different places. Your grip for both guns isn't going to be exactly the same. One of them has a grip safety to contend with.

Etc.

With that in mind, I can also see why rotating the position in which you carry could be disastrous as well - imagine going for your side arm when you need it and...its not there? (its in a different position). In that case, I do think switching types of holsters or positions, etc, could perhaps have even more bearing in a stressful situation?

I'd be happy to hear the opinion of our SME's on holster placement...but in at least my experience I've never had any problem getting to the gun regardless of where it's placed. The vast majority of my concealed carry time was spent with an IWB holster carried somewhere on the strong side. Sometimes it was behind the hip, sometimes right on the hip, sometimes slightly forward. In training I never had any problem getting to the pistol. In various carbine courses I've used a duty belt type rig that usually had a drop-leg Safariland 6004. I never had any trouble getting to the gun there.

When I was given the opportunity to run Todd's H&K P30 test gun I used his CCC "Looper" AIWB holster, and it was my first time running an appendix holster for any period of time. I never had any problem getting to the gun.

Now keep in mind that I'm not a guy who is faced with the significant likelihood of an exchange of gunfire on a daily basis...but based on my experience I've never encountered any instance where I've gone where the pistol isn't based on where I thought it should be.

Is it just the act of going back and forth between different-enough firearms in a short enough period of time that this gets problematic?

It depends on what level of skill you have. If I have no formal training and little useful practice and I own ten handguns...and I want to make it clear that this is not a desirable state to be in because I've been there before...then it probably doesn't matter much if I swap pistols every hour on the hour. I'm pretty much going to suck equally with everything.

If, however, I get formal training and follow up with regular practice and I now have over 25,000 trigger pulls with weapon A, 400 slide-lock reloads with weapon A, 250 immediate action drills with weapon A...then yes, I might well find myself utterly lost on weapon B. Example: In 2009 I had the privilege of attending a handgun class with Ernie Langdon in Culpepper, Virginia. As a backup to my carry gun (a S&W M&P at the time) I brought my sweet Langdon Tactical Technologies customized Beretta 92. I swapped to it on day 2 of the class because I figured there was no better time to show the awesomeness of my carefully tuned, hard chromed pizza pistol than in an actual Langdon class. I stepped up to the line to run a drill that required drawing, moving and shooting a target simulating trying to get away from a bad guy. I didn't realize I had my weapon in condition stupid. (Condition stupid = empty chamber, loaded mag in the weapon) I moved, drew, and CLICK.

Reverting to my training without thought I performed an immediate action drill and CLICK. I did the drill again, and CLICK. Once more, CLICK. When I performed my first immediate action drill I had inadvertently engaged the safety on the 92FS pistol. Under the mild stress of an audience my brain was unable to work out that "Hey, stupid, the safety is on!" until I had covered the entire distance between where I started (at the target) and where the rest of the class was congregated.

Many moons ago, that Beretta was my primary carry gun. I spent 120 hours in formal training with that pistol and more hours than that in practice. In that situation, however, I was as useless as someone who had just picked up a Beretta 92 for the first time in their life.

If someone was to carry a glock 21 for 5 years then decide to switch their carry to an FNP45, wouldn't there be the same issue, at least soon after the switch?

Yes. Again, if you suck you'll suck equally with either pistol more than likely. For the very well trained shooter there will always need to be a little room for working out how to run the new gun to a satisfactory level. Generally within a couple of thousand rounds the issues can be worked out. This is acceptable if you're gaining something in trading off between the weapons. I recently switched from the M&P as my primary carry gun to the H&K P30. I made the switch because I was uncomfortable with the margin of error I had when reholstering a weapon with a ~ 5 pound short-travel trigger and no manual safety that was aimed at either my femoral artery or my wedding tackle. With the P30 I have the ability to physically block the hammer's movement with pressure from my thumb, providing a much larger margin of error. I was willing to take a bit of a hit on efficiency while I learned the new pistol to gain the greater long term safety of my bits 'n pieces.

To give you some idea of just how perishable some of this stuff can be, after a couple of months with the P30 I went to the range and on a lark decided to shoot my M&P and do a speed reload. Right off the bat I was trying to release the magazine as I had been doing with my P30. It took a fraction of a second for me to remember "Oh, this pistol has a button." Would that have gotten me killed in a gunfight? Probably not...but I had been programming a new behavior and when my brain was busy that's the behavior that showed up.

Taking it a step further, if we were to assume that rotating between different firearms may be a liability in an adrenaline dump situation, where does that leave those who own more than 1 type of pistol, or who enjoy range time with said pistols (I'm sure this is most of us)?

I own over two dozen handguns because I like collecting guns. One of my favorite passtimes is to go to the range with a cool pistol like a Makarov or an old Sistema or a Walther PP and shoot at stuff. That being said, I make a distinction between fun guns and the weapons I carry for serious social purposes. I plink with the cool old guns. I train with the weapons I carry. This means that I spend the majority of my time running drills and practicing accuracy and manipulations with the guns I intend to reach for if I have to defend myself. When I go to the range I typically use only my carry guns. If I'm going more for amusement than practice, I still start and end my range session with my carry gun.

[JV_]

When I train and carry, I use the same gun until a new bug bites me - which is about every 12 month. Excluding my 1 month fling with a Gen 4 19, I carried, shot, and trained with the same M&P for nearly a year, 13,000 rounds.

I try hard to not shoot other guns, especially if I don't one. That's what invites the bug to bite. It's also a muscle memory issue, my trigger finger has a difficult time adjusting to new systems, I notice issues with those moments of infidelity.

There are a lot of shooters who can easily move between guns, I'm not one of them. Perhaps the fundamentals aren't ingrained enough? I wouldn't argue with someone on that point.

[ToddG]

Any time someone talks about having a "rotation," the first question I ask is, Why?

Often, it's a LEO who is issued a pistol he's not crazy about, so he carries his issued gun on duty and something completely different off-duty. Either this guy has enough time and ammo to become masterfully proficient with two different guns, or he's splitting his proficiency. Even if he doesn't like his duty gun, even if it doesn't fit him perfectly or have the features he really likes, that's the gun he's most likely to have on him in a fight. Why wouldn't he put as much effort as possible into mastering that gun? Then it only makes sense to carry the same gun, or perhaps a more compact version of the same brand and design, off duty.

Other times, it is an enthusiast/collector who just enjoys different guns and on some level justifies it by carrying a different gun each day of the week. Since most of these people spend all their money on guns and very little on ammo & training, to echo Tim I'll simply say their weapon choice is a very minor factor in their effectiveness. Or to borrow a phrase from R Moran at M4C, "they suck equally with all of them."

Personally, I need a solid day at the range and ~1,000 rounds to feel comfortable switching to a new platform. I'm still not going to be as proficient as I was with the gun that I shot the previous year and put 50,000+ rounds through, but I'm comfortable I'm off to a good start. I also do a fair bit of dry fire -- otherwise unusual for me, I must ashamedly confess -- getting used to all the controls, the draw, and the reload, and malfunction clearances for the new gun before I'll carry it.

There are definitely people who can pick up any pistol and run it very well, but in my experience while 50% of the shooters out there think that applies to them, the number who can actually pull it off is closer to 0.5%.

[TAP]

Other times, it is an enthusiast/collector who just enjoys different guns and on some level justifies it by carrying a different gun each day of the week. Since most of these people spend all their money on guns and very little on ammo & training, to echo Tim I'll simply say their weapon choice is a very minor factor in their effectiveness. Or to borrow a phrase from R Moran at M4C, "they suck equally with all of them."

No rotation here. I stick with the same gun for consistency. As Todd mentioned above, people spend way too much time and money on the next best thing (ie. guns and gear) and less on mastering what they have. I'd rather have one gun and spend the rest on training and ammo.

What are your thoughts on rotating with the same platform (ie. Glock)? I hear the argument that a glock is a glock but to me each model has enough differences (grip size, sight radius, caliber, etc.) that I think it is enough to affect the consistency.

[Rverdi]

I can't add much to Todd's post, I would have responded the same way.
I spent a career watching the LE issue he spoke about and it's incredibly prevalent. I can't count the number of times I had an officer ask me about off duty guns and then look at me like I had two heads when I suggested their duty gun.
"You work for SIG and you're telling me I shouldn't carry a 239 off duty, I should carry my issue Glock?"
"Yes, that's exactly what I'm telling you."
Long ago and far away I switched carry guns like socks, at some point I realized just how much it was hurting my shooting, put my duty 92G in my off duty holster and never looked back until I retired.
I preach the single gun mantra as often as I can, I truly believe it works.

[willowofwisp]

What about rotating from say a 19 to a 26 or 17? Do you guys consider this equally bad?

Sent from my Evo

[jar]

I'll echo Todd in asking why. If you carry a gun because you think it's cool or something, "rotation" makes sense. If you carry to potentially save your life, I think it's silly.

I do occasionally switch from my M&p 9c to a 442, but that's for concealability reasons for certain activites. I'm planning to try aiwb to mitigate them, but I've got some physical work to do first.

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