Banning the SERPA

[BehindBlueI's]

I think part of that comes down to weapons safety being much more heavily emphasized in the military setting...

I'm glad that's changed, then, as it certainly wasn't when I was in. Safety training sucked, so equipment had to make up for it. Empty chamber carry or completely empty gun carry with a M9, hammer down, safety on, meant you could carry it in a flipflop duct taped to your belt or cowboy-spin it on your finger and never ND it.

[TGS]

Are they dangerous? Yes, potentially if you use the wrong technique to activate the release and compliment that bad technique with bad safety procedures. You're supposed to apply even pressure with the upper half of your index finger rather than pressing with the top pad of that finger (above the distal joint). The latter method definitely can lend itself to hooking into the trigger if you get sloppy.

The issue isn't when you do it right. There's a proper technique to doing it, and I think that first paragraph you wrote is word for word how I've described the proper use in the past.

The issue is when you do it wrong, the use of the holster encourages Something Bad to Happen^TM because of what human fingers have a tendency to do under stress. And, unfortunately, humans are prone to error and make mistakes.

Thus, there's no reason to use a piece of gear that is prone to bad things when there's alternatives that don't feature this, as well as being of better quality/construction to boot.

But a lot of units have used them, both in training and in combat. The USMC put them through testing and evaluations at Quantico and found no serious safety or reliability issues. And while Serpa ND's seem to be a hot-topic among the civilian and competition communities, there really isn't much controversy attributed to it in the military. I think part of that comes down to weapons safety being much more heavily emphasized in the military setting, and as well pistols in general see far less employment and training emphasis as compared to rifles, generally speaking.

A lot of units outside the military have used them as well...…...including a lot of units with a high competency level for individual skills (as well as ones in the military). They've all ditched them. I don't give much credence to security forces standing post at a gate talking about how acceptable the SERPA is, when I can look at any number of US Border Patrol Agents and how their SERPAs are held together with duct tape.....because no matter how you slice it, you can completely forget about the safety concerns with the holster and still have plenty of reasons to ditch it simply because it's a fucking cheap piece of shit.

[vcdgrips]

I am not your attorney. I am not giving you legal advice. Any opinions expressed are my own and are not those of any employer, past, present or future.

I wrote the following below in 2011 in response to a budding trainer who was contemplating the banning of the SERPA in his classes. FWIW.

"Mr. Bell,

Thank you for your service, past present and future.

Re the SERPA, I would offer the following for your consideration. I have had a hand in teaching students at the CGSC since 2005 in the use of the pistol.

On multiple occasions, students using the SERPA missed the button and failed to present their pistol in a timely fashion when shooting against others in man on man competition. I acknowledge that this is also an end user issue though what, IMHO, is a flawed design, certainly can contribute to that issue.

More disturbingly, on at least two separate occasions, students were unable to present their weapons immediately after they had been shooting from the prone and other unconventional/"jackass" positions. During both instances, small debris such as a pebble/dirt etc. had managed to become jammed behind the release button, locking the gun into place. No combatives were being performed prior to the incident.

I have seen a video from a SouthNarc class in which this happened as well. Obviously, combatives were being performed at the time of the holster's "lock up". I have also seen video of snow "locking up" the release as well when the holster was manipulated in a pile of snow to simulate it being worn by the end user rolling around on the ground prior to presenting the weapon. [edited to add-I suspect other videos of this issue exist given the passage of time.]

I can tell you from first hand knowledge that a 1100+ person department in my metropolitan area is no long issuing the holster in favor of the Safarailand ALS given both the ND and lock "issues" discussed in this thread.

Though I am not your atty nor am I giving you legal advice, were I engaged as such by a trainer or school, I would advise against the use of the SERPA.

While in a typical ND situation, the end user may very well be primarily at fault (i.e. 80%). However, in many states' negligence schemes, the school /trainer could still be responsible for the remaining 20%. 20% of a 6 or 7 figure number for the death or permanent disability would be a life altering number for a school/trainer to take even with good insurance,especially if one could show the school/instructor had notice of the issue and chose not to take any remedial action.

On its best day, the SERPA is a widely available holster of modest quality with ever wider growing record of lock up and ND issues.

Trainers who have at least your world experience and have been training longer than you have been alive are rejecting the holster platform.
Food for thought.

Be safe and well,
David Barnes"

[HopetonBrown]

And while Serpa ND's seem to be a hot-topic among the civilian and competition communities, there really isn't much controversy attributed to it in the military. I think part of that comes down to weapons safety being much more heavily emphasized in the military setting

I can't find the article so I might be off on his choice of words, but Ken Hackathorn wrote that the average member of the military was beyond dangerous with regards to their gun handling.

Are there forum members with military and competition experience that would agree that weapon safety is more emphasized in the military than at a local USPSA or steel challenge match?

I guess what I find so interesting about the whole issue is that some people will get so hot and bothered about the safety concerns with a Serpa, but then think nothing of doing quick draws from an appendix IWB holster with a striker-fired pistol (w/ out safety).

Risk/reward.

Some feel the reward of better in-fight weapon access and a quicker draw is worth the additional risk.

The only reward gained by the risk of using a SERPA is that it costs less than a Safatiland.

[Hollander]

Correct: trigger finger actuation of OWB retention holster pointed at your calf/foot vs "proper" AIWB holster (read: a holster that directs the muzzle away from your body).

Except that any "proper" AIWB holster will still have the muzzle flagging your vital groin region during various movements (sitting, crouching, running, ect.).
And except that as you cant the pistol into holster for presentation and reholstering, it is very much flagging that same vital part of your body.

Except for all that....yes AIWB holsters are "always" directed away from your body.

The Serpa's I'm referring to are thigh rigs...so if any ND was to occur you're likely looking at a lower leg or foot injury. That's not small beans, but it certainly isn't the same as ND'ing into your upper thigh or groin region.

The issue isn't when you do it right. There's a proper technique to doing it, and I think that first paragraph you wrote is word for word how I've described the proper use in the past.

The issue is when you do it wrong, the use of the holster encourages Something Bad to Happen^TM because of what human fingers have a tendency to do under stress. And, unfortunately, humans are prone to error and make mistakes.

Thus, there's no reason to use a piece of gear that is prone to bad things when there's alternatives that don't feature this, as well as being of better quality/construction to boot.


A lot of units outside the military have used them as well...…...including a lot of units with a high competency level for individual skills (as well as ones in the military). They've all ditched them. I don't give much credence to security forces standing post at a gate talking about how acceptable the SERPA is, when I can look at any number of US Border Patrol Agents and how their SERPAs are held together with duct tape.....because no matter how you slice it, you can completely forget about the safety concerns with the holster and still have plenty of reasons to ditch it simply because it's a fucking cheap piece of shit.

Like I said, there certainly is some risk. Proper manipulation and safety-mindedness goes a long way in mitigating that risk. If you manipulate the holster by pressing as opposed to applying even pressure from your index finger, you're opening up the potential for problems. These holsters have been used by military forces, to include forces in combat, not just a few guys serving as gate guards. They've also been through quite a bit of life-fire training with Weapons Training Battalion (for testing and evaluation) at Quantico and with many combat-arms units doing pre-deployment training. I haven't heard of or seen any major trends with regards to ND's. Nor have I heard of, experienced or seen any malfunctions of the retention button either. I'm not saying it can't happen; it most certainly can. But honestly just about any active retention device is going to be susceptible to that issue given the right (or wrong) conditions and abuse.

And again, I find it interesting that there is a huge group-think mentality to ditch these holsters, yet there is widespread acceptance that is safe to do quick presentation drills with a striker-fired pistol w/out safety from an AIWB holster. The number one defense I hear from those who carry in such a manner is: "well just be mindful of the trigger and you'll be fine."

It's just not a fair-minded application of judgement IMHO.

[TGS]

Like I said, there certainly is some risk. Proper manipulation and safety-mindedness goes a long way in mitigating that risk. If you manipulate the holster by pressing as opposed to applying even pressure from your index finger, you're opening up the potential for problems. These holsters have been used by military forces, to include forces in combat, not just a few guys serving as gate guards. I haven't hear or seen of any major trends with regards to ND's. I haven't heard of any malfunctions of the retention button either. I'm not saying it can't happen; it most certainly can. But honestly just about any active retention device is going to be susceptible to that issue given the right (or wrong) conditions and abuse.

Well, you obviously know better than the combined shooting industry headshead that includes a lot of former .mil pointy spear types, so rock on.

[HopetonBrown]

Well, you obviously know better than the combined shooting industry headshead that includes a lot of former .mil pointy spear types, so rock on.

Here are some examples.

"Trigger fingers are just that, for the trigger. I think it should remain straight and have one function, to index the trigger." -Paul Howe, Army Delta

" a trigger finger paddle release holster is asking for trouble." -Larry Vickers, Army Delta

"Anybody can get away with safe handling of a SERPA holster under a non-duress situation... But under stress, it becomes very dangerous because of what our body naturally does. … You are going to tense up and if you go for that gun quickly, especially in a transition situation, five out of 10 guys will have a problem." -Travis Haley, Marine Recon

"We have decided to ban the use of Serpa style holsters due the higher chance of negligent discharges during the draw stroke." -Jeff Gonzales, NSW

"We have guys roll around in the dirt, and when they get up, they can't transition to their pistol. The pistol is stuck in the holster. I've seen it happen at least five times in my classes" -Kyle Lamb, Army Delta

"Whoever chose this piece of s**t to be issued to anyone- you’re an inexperienced pistol shooter who has no common sense. Hope you got a decent kickback from Blackhawk." -Kyle Defoor, DEVGRU

[ranger]

I used three different holsters for my issue M9 while deployed. I had a Safariland thigh rig to clear body armor. I had a Kydex holster and mag pouches - think IDPA rig - that I wore around the FOB and I used when I knew I was grounding my gear for a meeting with the sheiks etc. I had a SERPA holster that was specifically designed to fit the MOLLE on my IBA - used that when I was inside the HMMWV or BFV. Never saw a ND etc. related to holsters - saw multiple NDs due to poor weapons handling at the clearing barrels - mostly due to inattention or fatigue or both. Still have all three holsters - the Kydex rig went on to serve with some of my peers in other deployments - I think the M9 kydex has about 4 maybe 5 tours. Sitting at home now as current deployers are using the SIG.

[TGS]

Here are some examples.

"Trigger fingers are just that, for the trigger. I think it should remain straight and have one function, to index the trigger." -Paul Howe, Army Delta

" a trigger finger paddle release holster is asking for trouble." -Larry Vickers, Army Delta

"Anybody can get away with safe handling of a SERPA holster under a non-duress situation... But under stress, it becomes very dangerous because of what our body naturally does. … You are going to tense up and if you go for that gun quickly, especially in a transition situation, five out of 10 guys will have a problem." -Travis Haley, Marine Recon

"We have decided to ban the use of Serpa style holsters due the higher chance of negligent discharges during the draw stroke." -Jeff Gonzales, NSW

"We have guys roll around in the dirt, and when they get up, they can't transition to their pistol. The pistol is stuck in the holster. I've seen it happen at least five times in my classes" -Kyle Lamb, Army Delta

"Whoever chose this piece of s**t to be issued to anyone- you’re an inexperienced pistol shooter who has no common sense. Hope you got a decent kickback from Blackhawk." -Kyle Defoor, DEVGRU

But people in the USMC who don't actually use pistols say the SERPA is great!!!

[Hollander]

I can't find the article so I might be off on his choice of words, but Ken Hackathorn wrote that the average member of the military was beyond dangerous with regards to their gun handling.

Are there forum members with military and competition experience that would agree that weapon safety is more emphasized in the military than at a local USPSA or steel challenge match?

Was Ken ever in the military? If he was, it was a different era and mentality back then.


I've seen plenty of tomfoolery at casual ranges and so-called "professional" competitions that would never be tolerated on a military range, or even on the battlefield.

I've also RSO'd and OIC'd plenty of live-fire and maneuver ranges. I promise you that the average warfighting unit has a much better appreciation and understanding of firearms safety than the average joe running, or attending, a CCW or self-defense shooting course....and by the way I'm certainly not saying that Ken is an average Joe.