The only negative personal experience I myself can share is during a joint training event while performing a wounded officer \ offhand weapon access drill I witnessed a local county leo (member of their esu) repeatedly struggle fingering his serpa with his non-dominant hand trying to gain access to his weapon during the drill and I was genuinely concerned / scared as I thought for sure he was going to nd, thankfully he eventually got it out.
In your experience, how many times per year does the average member of the military who is issued a SERPA perform a draw under any sort of time pressure?Originally Posted by Hollander
It's a long thread, so I may have already mentioned it before. We have had a SERPA jam up on small debris on the range. We've never had a Safariland jam, and that's the issued holster. SERPAs aren't banned for off duty / plain clothes use but are discouraged.
Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.
I don’t AIWB so Tom won’t have to come back here because of me ;-)
Regarding “combat” use of the SERPA - the USMC issues them for the M9/M9A1 - the USAF prohibits them. Any you see in big army are either unit credit card purchases so personal purchases. Outside a few specialty areas like SOF, MPs etc the military as a whole knows little to nothing about pistols. They are carried much shot little - last priority in training for tip of the spear units. Most significant is the fact the military has been using them with M9s with a long, heavy and forgiving” trigger pull
The SERPA is a flawed design. Using it with guns which have short, light triggers only exacerbates the issue. Rather than re-hash the merits I will simply say I have personally seen two ND’s with injury involving SERPA’s on LE ranges - one with a Glock and one with a SIG 229. Both involved personnel from other agencies. I’ve also had one other ND with injury occur in a neighboring office AOR within my Agency. That also involved a Glock and a SERPA. Finally, an agent from another agency who I currently work with has also personally witnessed and helped treat a ND with injury involving a Glock and a SERPA on his agencies range. His agency currently prohibits the use of any holster which uses the trigger finger to defeat the retention.
ND’s aside, approximately 2 years ago one of our officers was the victim of an assault and attempted gun grab / dis-arm. The officer was able to hold onto his gun and keep it in the holster (standard /plainclothes SERPA) but the holster was broken off the belt loop. we had previously tested the plainclothes version and found it easy to simply rip the holster apart or rip it off the belt loop or paddle.
Given the availability of the Safariland ALS and GLS and even the 511 thumbdruve holsters there is no reason to use a SERPA.
Last edited by HCM; 02-15-2019 at 07:44 PM.
Ken Hackathorn certainly doesn’t need me or anyone else to speak for him, but it’s just ignorant to say “was he ever even in the military?” when his bio, including military service, law enforcement service, and firearms training in every environment imaginable is all over the web. He’s been around the block a bunch of times, and been doing so since before many of us were born.
He’s one of those people who, when he speaks, most knowledgeable people shut up and listen.
I wasn’t questioning the credibility of Ken Hackathorn (and I’m sorry for not knowing the personal history of every firearms instructor who might be name-dropped on here).
I am questioning the credibility of the quote assigned to him, which was something to the effect of: “ military personnel aren’t safe with their weapon systems.”
I’m not surprised to see a few people relay personal, and 2nd hand accounts, of LE and civilians hurting themselves while drawing from a holster. Given how they have been adopted and used en masse by certain military units, I’d expect to see more than a few examples of injuries and ND’s as per their reputation.
Nor am I surprised that when I google search for ‘serpa holster training accidents’ I see more opinionated articles and forum posts about WHY serpas are dangerous than I see actual accounts of them causing accidents.
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I’ve seen a rock-locked SERPA!!! The user would have agreed with “good retention” but might quibble with “quick access.”
The guys who’ve ripped the loops off would certainly sight up for it taking weight off the belt.
Ignore Alien Orders
What is your military experience ?
What is your experience on or running pistol ranges ?
Big difference between what you see as a shooter once or even a couple times a year vs working full or even part time running training ranges.
My experience comes from seeing people bleeding on ranges where I work and co-workers getting assaulted by people trying to kill them with their own gun, not google searches.
You are pretty dismissive of LE. Do you have any LE experience ?
I’ve trained both LE and MIL. While cops as a group are not great pistol shooters by PF standards, they are, as a group better pistol shooters and gun handlers than the non SOF military members I have seen.
Another real world example:
http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010...icer_acci.html
Chris Cerino, of Top Shot fame, also a veteran LEO, SWAT member and FI shot himself with a SERPA and an M&P . To his credit Chris totally owned the issue. It occurred when the gun failed to release on the initial draw. As he was pushing the button and pulling on the gun, the gun unexpectedly came free and his finger, which was still trying to push the SERPA button went right onto the trigger.
Fact is if Chris Cerino can shoot himself with a SERPA. So could you, or I or any member of this board.
Going back to the durability issue, the duty versions are more durable than the standard versions however, There has been one documented case I'm aware of where a suspect tore apart a SERPA duty holster, disarming the officer and shooting him with his own gun. It occurred in Ithaca, NY in 2011.
https://cnycentral.com/news/local/ma...icer?id=656202
According to a news release, a uniformed Ithaca police officer was parked in a patrol car in the gas station parking lot when he was "violently attacked" by a 20-year-old man. During the attack, "the suspect tore the Officer's duty weapon from his duty belt... and a round was discharged grazing the Officer's leg."
State Police say a second officer arrived on the scene and shot the suspect after ordering him to drop the gun. The suspect was transported to a hospital in Sayre, Pennsylvania. He later died.
But do what you want, just keep a tourniquet handy and don’t push that crap on anyone else.
Last edited by HCM; 02-15-2019 at 09:56 PM.
This might surprise you, but not every ND is public knowledge. There's no centralized database, and most people and agencies are smart enough to not run to the media or blog about it when it happens. The fact that people with a lot of experience are relaying a lot of incidents with holster X and not with holster Y would tell me that holster X is to be avoided. When 1600+ examples over some 15 years have *never* jammed a gun in holster X, but 1 of not nearly as many personally owned holster Y requires disassembly because of debris behind the tab, that tells me something.
The fact the military doesn't have a bunch of NDs (as far as you know) is likely more due to the hammer down/safety on/empty chamber carry of pistols, lack of instances of time sensitive draws (military pistol quals are more of a joke than most LE quals, and that's a low bar), and the general lack of pistol use among even those issued one then the fact the SERPA isn't flawed.
The SERPA is the Taurus Judge of holsters.
Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.
You seem to be hellbent that military are somehow special, and have definitely taken a dismissive attitude towards LE as HCM mentioned.
How do you explain away the fact that units in the military who actually train heavily on and use pistols (in particular, SOF) have ditched SERPAs if they can get something better?
The only units in the military using SERPAs are either ones who don't really use pistols, don't know better, or don't realistically have other options given priorities of open purchase funds.
ETA: And, not only that, but how do you explain how high-end LE units swearing away SERPAs? You really want to argue with us about the pistol shooting/handling abilities of LAPD D-Platoon, HRT or MSD vs your average Marine grunt, as if the latter is someone more competent, aware or even operates/handles sidearms with as much frequency?
Last edited by TGS; 02-15-2019 at 10:23 PM.
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