Banning the SERPA

[HCM]

I see we're still beating this dead horse, so here comes the devil's advocate.

Watch up til about the 16 second mark.



Finger inside the trigger guard with the firearm just clear of the holster.

Now I'm in no way trying to attack Mr. Miculek for whom I have vast respect for his proficiency with firearms. However, we can all agree that was a fairly big no-no, right? Looking at his holster, I see no finger release to have put his finger where it was prematurely. It's racing to the trigger, plain and simple. If one watches the video further, he advocates not getting on the trigger until the gun is on target.

So if even someone like Mr. Miculek can do this without a SERPA to blame it on, what are the odds some of the other incidents were software issues?

I heartily agree on other issues with this platform, but this regurgitated nonsense over the "dangerous" design of the release is blown extraordinarily out of proportion. And every time there's a story related to the SERPA folks fall all over themselves to the "See I told you!" bandwagon.

I'd be interested in a study of the overall NDs where a SERPA was present compared to overall SERPA use. I'd wager there's likely less than a 0.5% incident rate, and even then the problem was likely between the ears. Then to see it compared to other easily preventable NDs where an individual has a foreign object like their bunched up shirt or coat string snag their trigger, I imagine it might come up short.

FWIW my primary holsters these days are JMCK and a Safariland 537, so it's not like I'm trying to defend an investment on my own end with this.

You are missing the point. Yes, people get fingers on the trigger early, often unintentionally, so why would you want a SERPA, a piece of hardware which further encourages this bad software? Go back and re-read Dr. Glen Meyer's comments about a human design concept called "affordance" in reference to the SERPA.

You may think you are keeping your trigger finger straight but if you were to video your self you might be in for a surprise. This is not unique to the SERPA, I can't tell you how many LEOs I've videoed on the range who SWEAR they are not doing X until I show them video or slo-mo video of them doing X. Patrick Sweeney putting his finger on the trigger in the Guns and Ammo "SERPA's are safe" video while talking about "training" and "just keep your finger straight" is a perfect example.

As for "regurgitation" , I've been in LE over 20 years and teaching firearms for over 10, five of those full time. Here are the LEO ND's with injury on the range I have seen or had first party information on in that time:

FLETC range: Beretta 96D & Thumb break holster - cause - holstering with finger on trigger and failure to thumb check. Shot in the leg, officer survived.

FLETC range: SIG 229 DA/SA - SERPA - on the draw. This is one of five ND's with injury which have occurred on FLETC ranges involving the SERPA. All occurred on the draw. Three were basic trainees, two were experienced LEOs participating in in-service training or qualifications. Guns include SIG 229's and at least one HK P2000 LEM V2. All five officers shot in the legs, all five survived.

Public range leased for FED LE agency: Glock 22. Officer is attempting to disassemble his Glock for cleaning after qualifying and shoots self through the hand. Officer survived.

Local LE range: SIG 229R DAK - Local LEO assigned to Fed Taskforce re-holstered and drawstring "toggle" from his jacket got caught in the trigger guard and discharged the weapon. Cause - Failure to thumb check hammer while re-holstering. Shot in the leg, officer survived.

Fed LE range - FED LE agent - Glock .40 cal and SERPA - on the draw. Officer shot in the leg. This agency has since prohibited the use of any holster using the trigger finger to release retention. Officer survived.

Local Agency Range - local LEO -Glock 22 & SERPA - on the draw. Shot in the leg. Officer survived.

FED Agency Range - Remington 870 & 12 gauge slug. Officer had Remington 870 slung with a 12 gauge slug in the chamber and manual safety off. Trigger caught on gear and discharged round, passing through the instep area of the Officer's foot. Officer survived.

Public range - Local LEO and co-worker off duty experimenting with AIWB carry with Glock 19 in. A private bay. Co-worker is "NRA Instructor" but not agency instructor. Femoral artery hit. Co-worker had no IFAK or TCCC training. LEO died. Unclear if this occurred on the draw or re-holstering. Officer was DOA.

Local Agency Range - Glock 22 and SERPA holster. local LEO shot himself on the draw after having issues releasing retention. "Through and through" wound to the leg with FMJ training round. Officer is lucky, no bones or major blood vessels struck. Officer survived.

FED agency range -Glock 9mm and SERPA. ND on the draw. Shot through the leg, nicking femoral artery. Due to the remote area, FI's apply CAT TQ and transport officer to the hospital half hour away rather than wait for an ambulance. CAT TQ breaks en-route but 2nd CAT TQ is applied en-route. Officer survives.

That is 14 ND's with injury 9 of which involved SERPA holsters. 9 out of 12 if you exclude the long gun and Glock disassembly ND's since they did not involve holsters.

This does not include the SERPA ND with injury at the local IDPA match which which myself and several of the San Antonio area PF members shoot regularly.

These are just on the range in a controlled training environment. What happens under real stress ?

ND's aside, the SERPA is of poor quality. We have destroyed. several in training trying to dissuade our officers from using them. In February of this year, one of our officers was assaulted on a vehicle stop. The suspect also attempted to disarm our officer. Though our officer kept his gun in the holster until backup arrived, the officer's SERPA was broken off the belt mount.

[Duelist]

We had a local LEO ND while holstering his .40 GLOCK on a training exercise at our range. He was transitioning from handgun to long gun. Leg wound. It was a bloody mess, but first aid was applied on site, LEO loaded in a vehicle and run the 1.5 miles out from the range to the highway where a ambulance met them and took over the transport. He survived.

[TAZ]

I see we're still beating this dead horse, so here comes the devil's advocate.

Watch up til about the 16 second mark.



Finger inside the trigger guard with the firearm just clear of the holster.

Now I'm in no way trying to attack Mr. Miculek for whom I have vast respect for his proficiency with firearms. However, we can all agree that was a fairly big no-no, right? Looking at his holster, I see no finger release to have put his finger where it was prematurely. It's racing to the trigger, plain and simple. If one watches the video further, he advocates not getting on the trigger until the gun is on target.

So if even someone like Mr. Miculek can do this without a SERPA to blame it on, what are the odds some of the other incidents were software issues?

I heartily agree on other issues with this platform, but this regurgitated nonsense over the "dangerous" design of the release is blown extraordinarily out of proportion. And every time there's a story related to the SERPA folks fall all over themselves to the "See I told you!" bandwagon.

I'd be interested in a study of the overall NDs where a SERPA was present compared to overall SERPA use. I'd wager there's likely less than a 0.5% incident rate, and even then the problem was likely between the ears. Then to see it compared to other easily preventable NDs where an individual has a foreign object like their bunched up shirt or coat string snag their trigger, I imagine it might come up short.

FWIW my primary holsters these days are JMCK and a Safariland 537, so it's not like I'm trying to defend an investment on my own end with this.

I'm no expert, but maybe somewhat a regurgitator though. The video above is not an ND or an example of negligent finger placement. I'm pretty sure if you asked Jerry when he was on the trigger he'd tell you straight that he was on the trigger as soon as he cleared his holster. IMO the videos showed a trained professional who makes a choice on when to get on the trigger so that he can get his fast time for the camera. Very different than some guy who gets a few hours of training if any and then maybe blows through 1 box of ammo a year and then inadvertently placed his finger on the trigger.

I've owned a Serpa and ditched it ASAFP. I saw for myself how close I was getting to randomly putting my finger into the trigger guard without the movement registering in my little brain. I didn't shoot myself, but thought this was going to end badly if I kept going. Retraining myself was deemed as no value add simply cause there are only half a trillion holsters out there for my guns that better met my needs and way my fingers naturally work.

AFAIK basic human physiology does not want to have a rigid extended finger act as a cantilever when pushing a button. Maybe I'm a knuckle dragging Neanderthal that defaults to a curved finger for added strength, but that's how I work. With that kind of motion the Serpa is definitely a going to be a contributing factor for an accident. So why bother with it?

[Inspector71]

Ok,Ok. You anti-Serpa folks finally convinced me two months ago to toss in the garbage two perfectly fine Serpa holsters. One was for a H&K P2000, and the other was for my Glock 17. I'm tired of your constant whining on the issue. There goes six years of thousands of "muscle memory" repetitions with the Serpa system, and I suffered for it last Saturday at a local PPC match. So there I am, standing on the 7 yard line when the target turns with my brand new PF "approved" Safariland ALS system and guess what ? I could not get that darn pistol out of the holster because on auto pilot mode I was pressing with my index finger inward to release the pistol from the holster (Serpa). I quickly glance down at the holster while shooters on my left and right were already blasting away to see what the problem was. Dang, I'm supposed to be using my THUMB to get this pistol out !! Oh well, now I need about 5,000 reps with this new gadget to build up muscle memory for next month's match. LOL.

[HCM]

Ok,Ok. You anti-Serpa folks finally convinced me two months ago to toss in the garbage two perfectly fine Serpa holsters. One was for a H&K P2000, and the other was for my Glock 17. I'm tired of your constant whining on the issue. There goes six years of thousands of "muscle memory" repetitions with the Serpa system, and I suffered for it last Saturday at a local PPC match. So there I am, standing on the 7 yard line when the target turns with my brand new PF "approved" Safariland ALS system and guess what ? I could not get that darn pistol out of the holster because on auto pilot mode I was pressing with my index finger inward to release the pistol from the holster (Serpa). I quickly glance down at the holster while shooters on my left and right were already blasting away to see what the problem was. Dang, I'm supposed to be using my THUMB to get this pistol out !! Oh well, now I need about 5,000 reps with this new gadget to build up muscle memory for next month's match. LOL.

Did you start with a SERPA or with a thumb break? The ALS mimics a thumb break and is a pretty seamless transition for thumb break users.

Another alternative is the Safariland GLS though I've had much better results with the gun specific models vs the generic "pro-fit" models.

[Bowman_15]

I just finished taking a recertification course for my CC permit. The instructor's recommended holster...... a Serpa. His other major recommendation was to never use a glock as a CC weapon.

He also said that thumb break holsters were a bad idea as well though.

I should have just referenced him to this thread.

[Trooper224]

I just finished taking a recertification course for my CC permit. The instructor's recommended holster...... a Serpa. His other major recommendation was to never use a glock as a CC weapon.

He also said that thumb break holsters were a bad idea as well though.

I should have just referenced him to this thread.

No, you're better off just keeping your mouth shut and getting your permit. It's not your responsibility to fix stupid and nothing's ever gained by rolling in the mud with a pig.

[Olim9]

No, you're better off just keeping your mouth shut and getting your permit. It's not your responsibility to fix stupid and nothing's ever gained by rolling in the mud with a pig.

I have a better idea for him. Write a review on his page/buisiness whatever pops up on google and put THAT information on said review. "Instructor so and so recommended a Serpa which is ill advised for reasons (pf link), and recommended against using a Glock. In my opininon, people that are seen as conceal carry instructors should be held accountable for the bs they spew that will be passed on to unsuspecting people who simply do not know any better. If just one person will come to a conclusion of "oh this guy is an idiot" and move with finding another instructor to get their permit with , I think the endeavor would be worthwhile to say the least.

[Trooper224]

I have a better idea for him. Write a review on his page/buisiness whatever pops up on google and put THAT information on said review. "Instructor so and so recommended a Serpa which is ill advised for reasons (pf link), and recommended against using a Glock. In my opininon, people that are seen as conceal carry instructors should be held accountable for the bs they spew that will be passed on to unsuspecting people who simply do not know any better. If just one person will come to a conclusion of "oh this guy is an idiot" and move with finding another instructor to get their permit with , I think the endeavor would be worthwhile to say the least.

Sounds great. After all, launching a crusade has always worked out quite well historically.

[Det1397]

My department, one of the largest in the country, has just started to remove the issued SERPA from the field... Officers (mainly detectives, plain clothes officers and staff service personnel, who were issued the holsters for our GLOCK 19/23/26/27 pistols are required to turn in the SERPA, in order to be issued a replacement holster. The replacement is the Safariland 7378 7TS! The Puzzle Palace finally saw the light, thanks to a lieutenant who is in the know...