Safariland makes more than one holster with all those attributes and without a stupid button prone to jamming and has you pressing inwards with the trigger finger. It doesn't matter how low or high a SERPA rides.Originally Posted by Hollander
If I needed a retention holster, guess which brand I'd buy?
I'm not going to address each individual post because I don't have the time or the patience. So I'll keep my response as general as possible.
- I wasn't belittling LE when I said that I "wasn't surprised" a few of them have had ND's with the serpa's...I was saying that I wasn't surprised that there were a few examples of ND's with said holster since I would expect there to be MANY MORE given how negatively some people perceive the holster. Meaning, if the holster truly was as "dangerous" as some people claim it is, I'd expect there to be lots of examples of people having ND's with the holster since it was, at one point, widely used and still is to some degree.
- I was infantry in the USMC, but believe it or not I drew and shot the M9a1 (from a Bianchi and a serpa holster) quite a bit. I never had any safety issues, even when drawing fast and neither did the several dozen Marines in my unit who were issued M9a1's. Nor did I ever hear of any issues from adjacent units. And yes, more than a few were carried, drawn and shot in combat. On patrol we carried them with a round in the chamber, hammer forward, safety on or off (depending on the situation and user preference). The M9a1's DA/SA trigger certainly had its merits for that kind of usage. So these pistols weren't just thigh or hip ornaments for us. We (meaning those who were issued pistols) actually trained with them quite a bit, but certainly not as much as some SOCOM or recon units. I think the fact that we didn't have any serpa-related ND's, despite our pistol training being comparatively low (key word being 'comparatively'), can be attributed to the fact that 99.9% of the people in combat arms units have a very thorough appreciation for weapons safety (to include muzzle and trigger awareness)....like 'Gunnery Sergeant's and CO's ready to tear you a new one if you even think of being negligent with a firearm' level of appreciation. And honestly its something that's instilled from day one of MOS training (at least for the combat arms MOS's).
- Military pistol qualifications aren't jokes (at least the USMC versions aren't). Between the known distance pistol qualification and the more practical combat pistol program, the qualifications we go through are actually very good tests of accuracy and shooting fundamentals. There was upkeep training (live-fire) outside of annual quals for those who were issued pistols. I'd be interested to hear how pistol training compares between average LE personnel and the average military personnel (who were issued pistols) from someone who has actually seen and experienced both.
- Speaking of the average LE, I have no doubt that there are some groups within LE who have far greater pistol experience and training than the average grunt, even one who was issued and qualified on a pistol. I've no doubt there are some LE out there who have a wealth of knowledge on which pieces of gear and which tactics work and don't work in real-world engagements. However, those guys are few and far between compared to the average LE who get basic pistol training and spend 99% of their time writing tickets and responding to domestic disturbances. Not every LE officer is a "tactical operator" with years of fighting experience under his/her belt. So when someone gets online and tells me I should stop using a certain piece of gear because some LE are having problems with it or say its 'no good,' I'm not necessarily going to treat that gouge as gospel.
- And yes I know that a lot shooting instructors have banned serpa's from their courses. A lot shooting instructors have banned other carry methods from their courses, some of which are still widely popular with the civilian community. I think part of the reason for the banning is that serpa's can in fact be dangerous in the wrong circumstances (something I've always acknowledged). I also think part of the reason for the banning is that these courses (even the ones that cater to LE) get a huge variance in skill levels and proficiency; to a large degree, they have to cater to the lowest common denominator and ban methods or equipment that might exacerbate bad techniques at the individual level.
So far, I've seen one LE recount a few personal experiences, and a few anecdotal ones, about serpa's causing ND's. I'm not disputing what he has seen and experienced. That counts for something certainly. I've got my own experiences with the holster, and I haven't seen any major issues. Neither did any of my acquaintances who carried and used the M9a1 nor did Weapons Training Battalion at Quantico. The latter group has quite a bit of collective knowledge and experience gained from real-world operations; they signed off on the serpa being issued out for duty use. That counts for something as well.
There are a few people on here who seem all too eager to dismiss anyone who isn't a SEAL or SWAT member as ignorant when it comes to pistols. I think they'd do well to acknowledge that there are different experiences regarding the holster, some of which might conflict with one another. The truth likely lies somewhere in the middle.
Last edited by Hollander; 02-16-2019 at 12:54 AM.
C Class shooter.
I have a feeling minds will not be changed by any objective evidence.
How many are acceptable? How do you know how many there actually are?
Why tolerate the increased risk when there are alternatives that offer the same positive attributes without the negatives?
Why tolerate the ability to be jammed shut so you can't draw the pistol when there are alternatives that offer the same positives without that negative?
Would you carry a pistol to save your life that misfired every 500 rounds? I mean, 1:500 isn't very many. Would you trust your life to it? Or just shrug and say you figured there'd be more.
Bullshit. There are several well respected and listened to posters here who've never been military or LEO. They are generally accomplished shooters, instructors, etc. They have something that gives them credibility in their lane. What you don't see here is a lot of derp being repeated and passed along based on assumptions, Internet gun lore, etc. This forum is rather unique in the rather high level of competition talent, real field time, real gun fights, real accomplished instructors, real accomplished researchers, etc. that post here. It is moderated in such a fashion to keep the signal to noise ratio high. If people are't listening to you you've not established your credibility or you're just wrong. Often both.There are a few people on here who seem all too eager to dismiss anyone who isn't a SEAL or SWAT member as ignorant when it comes to pistols. I think they'd do well to acknowledge that there are different experiences regarding the holster, some of which might conflict with one another. The truth likely lies somewhere in the middle.
Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.
In the interest of Safety, NROI Canada will be prohibiting the use of Blackhawk Serpa Holsters and their variants that unlock in the same manner (using the trigger finger to release the firearm above the trigger guard) as of January, 1, 2018.
http://www.nroi-canada.org/wp/2018/01/08/111/
This just reported via Officer.com Daily News: https://www.officer.com/tactical/fir...665B2131945D9S .... sounds like another SERPA incident.
Jedi confirmed that it was a Serpa holster over on the modern samurai project Facebook page.
Formerly known as xpd54.
The opinions expressed in this post are my own and do not reflect the opinions or policies of my employer.
www.gunsnobbery.wordpress.com
I should also add that he said it was not in his class but another class held at that facility. Jedi’s assistant instructor went over and helped treat the injured person. His assistant instructor is a guy named Jim Dexter.
Last edited by Lon; 12-04-2019 at 05:41 PM.
Formerly known as xpd54.
The opinions expressed in this post are my own and do not reflect the opinions or policies of my employer.
www.gunsnobbery.wordpress.com
The LE&I branch of the agency I work still issues, and requires, these things for plainclothes and low-vis work.
And these are Feds that have been through FLETC and their restrictions.
Last edited by PNWTO; 12-04-2019 at 06:23 PM.
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