Oh man, this is all kinds of ugly.

[Chuck Haggard]

^That^ is pretty close IMHO.

If the baton and OC fail because you are untrained, or poorly trained, then the tools are not at fault.


IMHO again, too much of LE in the US uses ASP training, and their training program sucks. Almost no one I have seen except a few troops taught by some very competent Monadnock instructors "get" how important power development training is with batons.

Most of the problem with baton use in the Rodney King incident, as an example, was shitty baton training and poor UOF training and decision making. But complete lack of ability to generate power with a baton was key in that mess as well.

[BaiHu]

*SNIP*
But complete lack of ability to generate power with a baton was key in that mess as well.

This is where instant ninja seminars and weekend certifications fail. Good ones awaken people to seek out further training, but I would guess most agencies are just like most people, ie they won't follow through.

Big muscled guys tend to be the worst because they think that the sheer size of their muscles will create power.

Having a tool that requires the body to generate power without teaching power generation is like giving someone a gun with no training: the tool becomes a lucky talisman at best and an inefficient liability on the averages.

[JodyH]

The officers did show a lot of restraint in their use of deadly force, which was surprising considering everything that led up to the shots.
They did as well (or better) than could be expected considering what I am envisioning their level of hands on FoF training to be.
I see a training failure more than individual officer failure, and individual officer successes despite their training deficiencies.
Kudos to the WalMart LP employee, he was a significant factor several times without taking it too far (wanna bet he gets fired anyway?).

[jlw]

A male says something to the effect of "No, you're not gonna separate me and my family..." and the cops wade in and go hands on and it escalates from there. I think deescalating the situation verbally at that point would've helped, but I could be wrong.

ETA - I'm not busting anyone's balls and don't think the cops did anything wrong. I think a little diplomacy might've helped, that's it.

The dash cam is from either the third or fourth officer on scene. Two other officers were already on scene and talking to the people, and they tell three and four that they need to separate everyone at which time the guy says he will not be separated and the brawl starts.

The initial responding officers didn't just jump out of the car and start grabbing up people.

Also, in the quarter speed version, you see that one of the family members is already moving to physically engage before the cops ever puts hands on anyone.

[will_1400]

^That^ is pretty close IMHO.

If the baton and OC fail because you are untrained, or poorly trained, then the tools are not at fault.


IMHO again, too much of LE in the US uses ASP training, and their training program sucks. Almost no one I have seen except a few troops taught by some very competent Monadnock instructors "get" how important power development training is with batons.

Most of the problem with baton use in the Rodney King incident, as an example, was shitty baton training and poor UOF training and decision making. But complete lack of ability to generate power with a baton was key in that mess as well.

This is where instant ninja seminars and weekend certifications fail. Good ones awaken people to seek out further training, but I would guess most agencies are just like most people, ie they won't follow through.

Big muscled guys tend to be the worst because they think that the sheer size of their muscles will create power.

Having a tool that requires the body to generate power without teaching power generation is like giving someone a gun with no training: the tool becomes a lucky talisman at best and an inefficient liability on the averages.

Just something I've observed is that most asp training focuses on delivering strikes to the more meaty muscles of the body instead of going for more damaging shots (i.e. targeting the thigh instead of the knee). Lack of power generation training coupled with going for points on the body that can take some pretty strong impacts is a recipe for failure.

[Chance]

Some clinch game, both standing and grounded would have helped tremendously.

I was thinking that as well. It also seems odd to me that if the family were trained (or otherwise familiarized) with rolling after being tasered, they'd know how to throw a punch. Lots of closed-fist haymakers being swung around.

[Sensei]

Just something I've observed is that most asp training focuses on delivering strikes to the more meaty muscles of the body instead of going for more damaging shots (i.e. targeting the thigh instead of the knee). Lack of power generation training coupled with going for points on the body that can take some pretty strong impacts is a recipe for failure.

Short of fracturing proximal long bones, it is unrealistic to expect blunt force trauma to the extremities to stop a determined attacker. In fact, I've seen plenty of assholes continue to fight or shoot after devastating trauma to the proximal extremities. We don't count on extremity shots to work; why would we expect strikes to be any better? There are still only 2 ways to incapacitate an attacker: disrupt the CNS (fastest) or disrupt the cardiovascular system's ability to deliver blood to the CNS. No amount of force training is going to change this as long as the strikes are delivered to the extremities.

Since baton strikes to the head are lethal force, we can expect the same anemic results regardless of whether Barney Fife is doing the swinging or Dan Inosanto.

[Shellback]

Also, in the quarter speed version, you see that one of the family members is already moving to physically engage before the cops ever puts hands on anyone.

Finally had a chance to watch that. Thanks for pointing it out.

[Chuck Haggard]

Short of fracturing proximal long bones, it is unrealistic to expect blunt force trauma to the extremities to stop a determined attacker. In fact, I've seen plenty of assholes continue to fight or shoot after devastating trauma to the proximal extremities. We don't count on extremity shots to work; why would we expect strikes to be any better? There are still only 2 ways to incapacitate an attacker: disrupt the CNS (fastest) or disrupt the cardiovascular system's ability to deliver blood to the CNS. No amount of force training is going to change this as long as the strikes are delivered to the extremities.

Since baton strikes to the head are lethal force, we can expect the same anemic results regardless of whether Barney Fife is doing the swinging or Dan Inosanto.

I get where you are coming from, however I have taken grown angry men clean off of their feet with baton strikes, using PR24s or old school wood batons. They might not have stayed down every time, but they got hit hard, and they knew it. That sort of baton work was sadly lacking in the video.

[will_1400]

Short of fracturing proximal long bones, it is unrealistic to expect blunt force trauma to the extremities to stop a determined attacker. In fact, I've seen plenty of assholes continue to fight or shoot after devastating trauma to the proximal extremities. We don't count on extremity shots to work; why would we expect strikes to be any better? There are still only 2 ways to incapacitate an attacker: disrupt the CNS (fastest) or disrupt the cardiovascular system's ability to deliver blood to the CNS. No amount of force training is going to change this as long as the strikes are delivered to the extremities.

Since baton strikes to the head are lethal force, we can expect the same anemic results regardless of whether Barney Fife is doing the swinging or Dan Inosanto.

I don't disagree, but smashing someone's kneecap and potentially destroying the joint can render them less mobile more reliably than just hitting the meaty parts of the leg. At the very least it's a balance point on the human body and can buy time for a more effective follow-up.