Why does AIWB get a pass on sweeping your own self?

[TGS]

Getting altitiude sickness yet from that high horse you're riding?.

Dude, you speak authoritatively with absolutes on shooting/firearms aspects in which you are 100% incorrect. You've been called out by several forum members over the last couple months (your lack of training while judging "untrained" folks, your vast amount of experience on dealing with the public after being an RSO so little the ink on your card hadn't even dried....for starters), and you just need to stop.

Specific to your shoulder holster comment about being unable to draw without muzzling yourself...you're just plain wrong. End of story.

[SLG]

As I said before, when you draw correctly from a shoulder holster, you do not muzzle yourself. If you are muzzling yourself, that is a clue that you are doing it wrong. How you accomplish a muzzle free draw depends on the specific holster and concealing garment, but the principles are fairly universal. Get hand to gun and establish master grip. Raise gun side arm to avoid muzzle crossing it. Draw gun.

None of that is as fast as a good belt holster. None of it allows for good weapons retention like a good belt holster. None of that allows you to not sweep others throughout the day.

[314159]

OP here. I understand that cross draw and shoulder holsters have many problems and have fallen from general applicability due to their weaknesses. It just seemed to me that the self sweeping issue had been used as the ultimate closing point in the argument. So, if that was the closer why did AIWB get a pass?
My perception, rather than the reality of this is probably the real issue.
I'm happy with ToddG's explanation of AIWB carry issues and I have to agree Sonny Crockett was no role model, too. Thanks, guys.

[Clusterfrack]

My AIWB holsters ride at 12:30, and are tipped outward. I don't muzzle any body parts when holstering or drawing.

[okie john]

OP here. I understand that cross draw and shoulder holsters have many problems and have fallen from general applicability due to their weaknesses. It just seemed to me that the self sweeping issue had been used as the ultimate closing point in the argument. So, if that was the closer why did AIWB get a pass?
My perception, rather than the reality of this is probably the real issue.
I'm happy with ToddG's explanation of AIWB carry issues and I have to agree Sonny Crockett was no role model, too. Thanks, guys.

My beef with these two modes of carry is that if you get into a shoving match, then it's easier for your opponent to draw your pistol than it is for you to draw it.


Okie John

[WDW]

Your muzzle is always pointing somewhere at something. The point is to have control of it & to always be aware, minimizing things that are inevitable.

[Wendell]

I remember a stage at the 2011 World match - with a seated starting position - where the SO was emphatic that he would DQ anyone who allowed their muzzle to cross their leg during the draw. And then you see stuff like this:

(At about 03:50)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...LrjmcBGI#t=215

[Byron]

When people say "________ carry method is advantageous because you never sweep yourself," I just figure they accidentally left off the second half of the sentence: "________ carry method is advantageous because you never sweep yourself while standing upright, in a certain stance, without moving, with your target in a specific physical relation to you."

The second a person needs to take a wider stance, things change. Start moving? Things change. Need to draw while seated? Need to draw while supine? Target not at your height? Target not directly in front of you? Movement limited by your environment? Things change.

While there are certain positions that make an AIWB draw more likely to muzzle one's self, there are plenty of other positions in which an AIWB draw is the least likely to cause a self-sweep. Supine is just one example, assuming you're actually using your legs to do something (and not just laying completely flat and stiff like a board).

I'm not saying that muzzling one's self is a harmless practice we should all ignore, but pretending that it just afflicts certain carry methods is even more unsafe: it gives some people the false impression that so long as they use Carry Method X, they can just draw as sloppily as they want.

[s0nspark]

I'm not saying that muzzling one's self is a harmless practice we should all ignore, but pretending that it just afflicts certain carry methods is even more unsafe: it gives some people the false impression that so long as they use Carry Method X, they can just draw as sloppily as they want.

My thoughts too.

I have accepted that under certain circumstances I may muzzle myself during a draw or reholster - all the more reason to practice both as part of my dry fire regimen to maintain proper trigger finger discipline IMO.

That said, I consider muzzling someone else on the draw a much bigger concern.

[JMS]

So, if that was the closer why did AIWB get a pass?
My perception, rather than the reality of this is probably the real issue.

It gets all of us. In this case, the misperception is that AIWB got a pass. It didn't.

What gets lost in the sauce is that it's been correctly noted that there's not a single carry method...not one...in which the possibility of self-muzzling ISN'T present. ALL present some risk of self-muzzling upon draw or reholstering. Even the ones that might appear foolproof....stand by, Mother Nature and the population of firearms practitioners will procreate a more capable fool; bank on it. Beware absolute statements; "can" and "may" are far more fitting verbs than "will" or "do."

USPSA recognizes this, and has it codified, for example. The USPSA rulebook, my copy is Feb 2014, I'm unaware of any more recent editions. Somebody please correct if applicable...

Pg 47, 10.5 Match Disqualification -- Unsafe Gun Handling

10.5.5 Allowing the muzzle of a handgun to point at any part of the
competitor’s body during a course of fire (i.e. sweeping).

10.5.5.1 Exception – A match disqualification is not applicable for
sweeping of the lower extremities (below the belt) while drawing
or re-holstering of the handgun, provided that the competitor’s
fingers are clearly outside of the trigger guard. This
exception is only for holstered handguns. Sweeping does not
apply to a handgun holstered in compliance with Rules 5.2.1
and 5.2.7

I carry AIWB daily, and compete in Limited and Limited 10 while using a concealed AIWB holster. We see folks slightly muzzling themselves with dropped/offset holsters, "standard" at or above the belt OWB, traditional IWB, AIWB. The folks perhaps most likely to do so...

...completely putting aside the inexperienced or otherwise uncorrected...

...are the ones who...ahhh...let's just say that they're testing the tensile strength of their synthetic team polo shirt...and some of the older folk who have mobility issues in their elbow, wrist, shoulder for any number of reasons.

Ultimate point being, AIWB doesn't "get a pass" from anybody worth listening to. It's no more safe in that regard as any other carry method, nor is it inherently more unsafe than any other method. Problem is that folks who can't articulate that are the same folks who can't parse things down that far and love to Say Something, yet don't recognize the important difference between that and Having Something To Say.