trigger finger safety

[GJM]

Finger off the trigger and in register until THREE things happen: target identified, decision to shoot target formed based on objective reason(s) and weapon is oriented on the target (sights on). Keeps us from shooting without our brain firing the shot, don't ya know!

I am curious about your third requirement -- "weapon is oriented on the target (sights on)."

Once you have decided to shoot and are in the process, do you let your finger leave register naturally as part of the firing process, or do you consciously delay your finger leaving register until the pistol has stopped and the sights are aligned? I can see the answer being different depending upon whether there is a non-threat there as well. The reason I ask, is keeping your finger in hard register until the gun has stopped and sights are aligned will add significant time.

[Chuck Haggard]

Not speaking for Wayne, but lets say I am drawing to a shot, with a bad guy in the open at fairly close range and standing in front of a brick wall and no one is around him, can I safely start to get my trigger finger into the trigger guard at about the 2 position and work the problem as a press-out? I sure can.

Lets say I have that same bad guy at low ready, giving commands, and he decides to fight, can I get my finger onto the trigger and get the slack out on the rise? Sure, with the worst penalty being that my first shot clips the guy's knee or pelvis because I am a little too much "slack out" on the way up.

Most problems are not that clear cut on the street in the cop world, or the military spec ops world, and the penalty for hitting no shoots is vastly greater than one or five seconds. I note that even at the Tac Conference when people realize that the penalty for hitting a no-shoot is 100 seconds that they slow their roll noticeably.
Now, change the match to where Tom gets to keep your guns, your wallet and your car if you shoot a no-shoot and you have to walk home wearing a dunce cap, and see how people start to act.

I get in the other thread where folks are talking "match vs street", totally get it, and get that you may be giving up micro seconds in the match and may not score as well by going a tad slower. Some of us are willing to live with that.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Not speaking for Wayne, but lets say I am drawing to a shot, with a bad guy in the open at fairly close range and standing in front of a brick wall and no one is around him, can I safely start to get my trigger finger into the trigger guard at about the 2 position and work the problem as a press-out? I sure can.

Lets say I have that same bad guy at low ready, giving commands, and he decides to fight, can I get my finger onto the trigger and get the slack out on the rise? Sure, with the worst penalty being that my first shot clips the guy's knee or pelvis because I am a little too much "slack out" on the way up.

Most problems are not that clear cut on the street in the cop world, or the military spec ops world, and the penalty for hitting no shoots is vastly greater than one or five seconds. I note that even at the Tac Conference when people realize that the penalty for hitting a no-shoot is 100 seconds that they slow their roll noticeably.
Now, change the match to where Tom gets to keep your guns, your wallet and your car if you shoot a no-shoot and you have to walk home wearing a dunce cap, and see how people start to act.

I get in the other thread where folks are talking "match vs street", totally get it, and get that you may be giving up micro seconds in the match and may not score as well by going a tad slower. Some of us are willing to live with that.

There's your answer GJM.

[JustOneGun]

We've had this discussion before. It seems to me that we try to break it down to an either or scenario. Many new shooters are motivated to get on the trigger quickly to save their lives and we reiterate the safety rules and leave it at that. I think that is a bad idea. They are going to do what they think will keep them alive. If you don't convince them there is a better way then isn't that just bad instructing?

If you want to put the sight on target and then move your finger, more power to you. But if you are going to start early I believe it is a good idea to show a student how to put the trigger finger onto the trigger at the end of the draw, not the beginning. It takes so little time to take up the slack and press when compared to the overall draw that once you have the student shoot this way he/she is willing to practice that way.

At that point have we not made the differences between the two camps functionally (time) very small? Not only is that important, no matter what philosophical camp you come from, but I have found that given just a bit of stress those two shooters tend to shoot the exact same way.

[GJM]

I wasn't criticizing what Wayne said. I pay close attention to what Wayne says, and was just trying to make sure I understood what he is saying. After processing, discussion can continue.

[Chuck Haggard]

Unless trained otherwise people will in fact do what they feel is best under stress, with fight or flight that may be to poop themselves and try to run when that isn't the best response.
Because it makes them feel better, and no one has told them otherwise, we see legions of cops pointing guns at people that they have zero articulable reason for pointing a gun at. This is un-sat.

[Wayne Dobbs]

I wasn't criticizing what Wayne said. I pay close attention to what Wayne says, and was just trying to make sure I understood what he is saying. After processing, discussion can continue.

There was clearly no criticism perceived, George! I don't wait until the end of the pistol's presentation/orientation to get on the trigger. It's done when I absolutely know that I'm going to fire and that the gun is oriented (although not necessarily aimed) at the target. Sometimes that's sooner and sometimes it's later. I wait until I've cleared step three of the draw to touch and slack out the trigger on a draw and fire. On a ready position shot, I touch and slack as the gun comes up from ready and covers the target. It's actually very simple and it keeps me from doing stupid stuff!

[taadski]

There was clearly no criticism perceived, George! I don't wait until the end of the pistol's presentation/orientation to get on the trigger. It's done when I absolutely know that I'm going to fire and that the gun is oriented (although not necessarily aimed) at the target. Sometimes that's sooner and sometimes it's later. I wait until I've cleared step three of the draw to touch and slack out the trigger on a draw and fire. On a ready position shot, I touch and slack as the gun comes up from ready and covers the target. It's actually very simple and it keeps me from doing stupid stuff!

Wayne,

I don't mind pointing out that this very closely replicates the process that Jorge (our open shooter from the other thread) is in the midst of, no? He had identified the steel as the target, has made the decision to shoot as he's coming into position and is in the process of bringing the gun into the eye target line as he's prepping the trigger. I'm NOT saying that there aren't tons of permutations in an LE/real-life context that will affect our ability to take these steps, but under the circumstances you describe in your clarification, the trigger finger particulars are pretty darn similar, IMO.

"Threat" identified? check
Decision to shoot made? check
Pistol oriented toward the target? check

Maybe, just maybe, we're not quite as apples to oranges as everyone is assuming?

FWIW, I'm a full time cop that spends quite a bit of time training for gun games and competing, so obviously these threads are of very special interest…



t

[Wayne Dobbs]

Wayne,

I don't mind pointing out that this very closely replicates the process that Jorge (our open shooter from the other thread) is in the midst of, no? He had identified the steel as the target, has made the decision to shoot as he's coming into position and is in the process of bringing the gun into the eye target line as he's prepping the trigger. I'm NOT saying that there aren't tons of permutations in an LE/real-life context that will affect our ability to take these steps, but under the circumstances you describe in your clarification, the trigger finger particulars are pretty darn similar, IMO.

"Threat" identified? check
Decision to shoot made? check
Pistol oriented toward the target? check

Maybe, just maybe, we're not quite as apples to oranges as everyone is assuming?

FWIW, I'm a full time cop that spends quite a bit of time training for gun games and competing, so obviously these threads are of very special interest…



t

Close in many ways I'm sure. Just make sure that you're not teaching yourself to get on triggers and/or shoot too fast. You must continue to assess the threats as you begin the engagement and throughout said engagement. Most don't do that process and outrun their headlights.

[GJM]

There was clearly no criticism perceived, George! I don't wait until the end of the pistol's presentation/orientation to get on the trigger. It's done when I absolutely know that I'm going to fire and that the gun is oriented (although not necessarily aimed) at the target. Sometimes that's sooner and sometimes it's later. I wait until I've cleared step three of the draw to touch and slack out the trigger on a draw and fire. On a ready position shot, I touch and slack as the gun comes up from ready and covers the target. It's actually very simple and it keeps me from doing stupid stuff!

That clarifies the question I had, and makes sense to me. I may actually be a tad later than you with a Glock, as my goal is to be lightly touching the face of the trigger, but not take up the slack. The reasons I do it that way, are the instances I have triggered a shot early have been aggressively prepping on the presentation, and I find my accuracy is better when I run the whole travel of the trigger in one continuous motion. Being lightly on the face, costs me .05 compared to being fully prepped, and that trade off is worth it to me both on the brown cardboard and out on the tundra.

I originally thought you were saying that you only brought your finger from register after you had the pistol out there on target, which meant you would have been waiting on your trigger to move from register after stopping the gun.