Discuss: Safety

[joshs]

Completely agree. This guy and anyone like him should be eliminated from our ranks.

If you can't discuss this topic without personally attacking other members, don't post.

[PPGMD]

So, would you feel unfairly judged if someone called Finger on you and you were DQ'd while doing this move?

It still seems to me to be just as fast to have good finger discipline. But I am not a master shooter, either.

Again it depends on context. For all we know his finger only went on the trigger was he was setting up on a target that we can't see. The gun isn't tilted too far up to not be a press out on the target.

As long as he was actively moving the gun toward a target it is perfectly acceptable within the rules. Just like during target transitions.

[cclaxton]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzZBiYV4vk4&t=15

The actual video shows the first shooter doing exactly what is needed: his finger can be on the trigger while his sights are on the target. As soon as he does a reload, his finger is off the trigger. Shooter B (red ears) actually has his finger in the trigger guard for a split second while initiating a reload, but then pulls his finger out as required.
But this is not the same as what is in the picture. In the picture the shooter is not actively engaging a target because no close in target would be set so high as to require the muzzle to be tilted up while engaging it...at least if the Match Dir knows what he is doing.
Cody

[PPGMD]

If you can't discuss this topic without personally attacking other members, don't post.

That is hardly a personal attack, I read it more as sarcasm. In fact he has a point, getting your finger on the trigger with the muzzle pointed that far up is just as dangerous as what Todd posted.

[cclaxton]

Again it depends on context. For all we know his finger only went on the trigger was he was setting up on a target that we can't see. The gun isn't tilted too far up to not be a press out on the target.

As long as he was actively moving the gun toward a target it is perfectly acceptable within the rules. Just like during target transitions.

Well, I agree context is missing, and more info is needed. But I don't see his gun up high enough to be actually sighting the gun and therefore justify the finger.
Cody

[PPGMD]

Well, I agree context is missing, and more info is needed. But I don't see his gun up high enough to be actually sighting the gun and therefore justify the finger.

I certainly wouldn't get it on the trigger that early except for a double action press out, but to me he looks like he is setting up on a target and thus it is allowed within the rule as I understand them.

And if I were the shooter and you called me on it, I would appeal it.

[Carnifex]

It's easy to sit back and arm chair quarterback a moment that lasted a tenth of a second in real time. I would bet just about everyone here has gotten heir finger in the trigger guard during a press out or when transitioning quickly. A 30 second Google search found multiple examples of other top shooters in compromising positions.





First 20 seconds of this video
http://youtu.be/6_W2w0oBwb8

The first video of Todd I pulled up had questionable fingers as well. It's a nature of the beast when shooting fast and somethig we should all be more aware of.

[cclaxton]

I certainly wouldn't get it on the trigger that early except for a double action press out, but to me he looks like he is setting up on a target and thus it is allowed within the rule as I understand them.

And if I were the shooter and you called me on it, I would appeal it.

Perhaps this is making Todd's point: That gaming rules allow unsafe practices to develop. With IDPA you get one warning. I would like to see that in USPSA. The typical reaction is to talk to the shooter afterwards and informally tell him to watch it. That just doesn't seem like the right approach when it comes to safety.
Cody

[joshs]

It's easy to sit back and arm chair quarterback a moment that lasted a tenth of a second in real time. I would bet just about everyone here has gotten heir finger in the trigger guard during a press out or when transitioning quickly. A 30 second Google search found multiple examples of other top shooters in compromising positions.





First 20 seconds of this video
http://youtu.be/6_W2w0oBwb8

The first video of Todd I pulled up had questionable fingers as well. It's a nature of the beast when shooting fast and somethig we should all be more aware of.

I don't see any issues with what Bob or Todd are doing in those images. Bob's finger looks to be outside the trigger guard, but it is still low because he is mid "flip" to hit the mag release. Todd is just hitting the mag release with his index finger.

I can't tell if Rob has his finger in the trigger guard or not.

[waktasz]

Perhaps this is making Todd's point: That gaming rules allow unsafe practices to develop. With IDPA you get one warning. I would like to see that in USPSA. The typical reaction is to talk to the shooter afterwards and informally tell him to watch it. That just doesn't seem like the right approach when it comes to safety.
Cody

Actually IDPA rules allow bad habits to develop, because you get a warning before getting the DQ. In USPSA there is no leeway. If you see that as an RO, and you are sure, it's a trip home.

Remember when IDPA gave 3 warnings before issuing the DQ? I'd like to think my "IDPA doesn't care about safety" thread on IDPA forum had a lot to do with that rule being immediately retracted.