Discuss: Safety

[nwhpfan]

Go ahead and try to excuse it with all the gamer rules you want folks. The fact is this: at that moment he's not actively shooting his space gun and his finger's on the trigger, or so close as to amount to the same thing..........F-A-I-L.

So what's your call? Unsafe? If so why?

Not talking about any game rules; when is it OK to put your finger in the trigger guard as far as you are concerned? When the gun is on target? At eye level? What?

[Lomshek]

Wow.

Here's what I can tell from that one frame: his finger is on the trigger while his sights aren't on the target. Absolutely but can the RO see that?

For everyone who is justifying this because: game, all that does is reinforce the idea that these games are giving up cardinal safety procedures for the sake of speed & fun.

No justification just the understanding that especially when the shooter is running like he is it's impossible for the RO to even see the trigger finger to make such a call. To try and move in advance of the shooter without getting downrange of the muzzle or in the shooter's way is just about impossible.

If one could have 6 RO's on a stage and post them at various strategic positions behind bullet proof glass with hi-def, high speed video cameras and telephoto lenses for a clear view of the trigger guard then the call would be easy. Lots of times my view of the trigger guard is obscured by the shooter's body, hand, angle of my relative position to them, angle the pistol is held during reload and much more. There are plenty of times I suspect that the finger is on the trigger but very few when I can unequivocally say it was on the trigger.

As I have said before, the only rule I have seen taken seriously in the competitive arena is not breaking the 180. Anything else is pretty much voluntary on the part of the shooter. It no longer bothers me as I shoot very little competition and the one venue I am shooting is low risk for me and I voluntarily choose to utilize non-range safety protocols. Most others don't. I just wish folks would quit pretending and just say "don't break the 180 and don't shoot yourself".

Really this is what the RO can enforce most times especially when dealing with a fast shooter. On a new slow shooter I can track their trigger finger pretty easily because all their movements are slow, for a faster shooting A-class (or even C) shooter it becomes much harder as seconds become tenths and walking turns into running.

I don't have an easy answer just making an observation from my viewpoint.

[Slavex]

based on that photo he could easily be pressing the gun out onto a target and is prepping. I see nothing wrong at all.
In some countries we have to reload with the muzzle flat, can't point over berms, even at slidelock, or else it's a DQ, other countries it doesn't matter.

[BigT]

Wow.

Here's what I can tell from that one frame: his finger is on the trigger while his sights aren't on the target.

For everyone who is justifying this because: game, all that does is reinforce the idea that these games are giving up cardinal safety procedures for the sake of speed & fun.

But I can't tell from the frame if his gun is in the process indexing out to a target. It could easily be the equivalent of a prepping on a press out. It could also be pointing over the berm in a very unsafe manner. I dunno , I just have one out of context picture to work with.

[ToddG]

But I can't tell from the frame if his gun is in the process indexing out to a target. It could easily be the equivalent of a prepping on a press out.

Beyond contact distance, if someone's finger is on the trigger before he can visually verify alignment on the target it's wrong whether it's in a game or otherwise.

This, to me, is the biggest problem with the whole "180 degrees of safety" concept. It leads people to become laissez-faire about what would otherwise be obvious safety rules. Hell, this photo was used to advertise a product because the game has become so inured to bad trigger finger discipline that it's not just ignored, it's accepted and people even try to justify it. As long as the gun is pointed in the pretend "safe" direction, everything is forgiven.

Competitive shooters like to pat themselves on the back for being so much safer than other gun owners. It's something I've even said myself many times. But the more I look around, the more I see a decline in the standards that used to make those competitive guys so safe. There are still all the same rules, but most of them are little more than words in a book so long as the muzzle is always pointed at the "correct" half of the planet.

[Chris Rhines]

based on that photo he could easily be pressing the gun out onto a target and is prepping. I see nothing wrong at all.
In some countries we have to reload with the muzzle flat, can't point over berms, even at slidelock, or else it's a DQ, other countries it doesn't matter.

He is. I'm pretty sure I recognize that stage from Southern Utah Practical Shooters. There's a target directly in front of the shooter, about six feet distant.

If we're going to condemn a shooter as being unsafe, we should probably take care to have all the relevant information.

[BigT]

He is. I'm pretty sure I recognize that stage from Southern Utah Practical Shooters. There's a target directly in front of the shooter, about six feet distant.

If we're going to condemn a shooter as being unsafe, we should probably take care to have all the relevant information.

Should this be the case then it wouldn't seem to require panic or condemnation.

Ive fired shots from various degrees of extension often. None were unsafe at all I, if you will forgive the cliche, "saw what I needed to see" to make the hit. If his target is that close he can probably fire the shot and get an adequate hit from were he is.

Just like with shooting from a No2 doesn't really allow you to visually verify the sights, but you know exactly where the gun is pointing and where the bullet would go if you were to fire. I realise that we would normally shoot from a No2 at contact distance but the principle remains. On ECQC we also shot from a No3. I knew where my gun was pointing without being at eye level.

[cclaxton]

Context is important, but the fact that the muzzle is tilted slightly up and the finger is inside the trigger guard, means a FINGER call is appropriate. There are times that a really close target doesn't need a full sight picture, but those targets would be lower to the ground and would not require a muzzle tilted up. And, I don't think that is inherently unsafe, but the finger control should still be there.

Where I see most of the finger violations is during reloading. And, as an SO/RO trying to get my eyes on the trigger finger during a reload can be challenging. One time I gave a guy a finger call on a stage during a reload and he shook his head in disbelief. The very next stage he got to low cover and a reload and I yelled STOP!. He froze and I said, "Look down at your gun." His was in the middle of a reload and the gun was laying sideways and you could plainly see his finger on the trigger. I said, "Do you see your finger?" It was ONLY THEN that he realized what he was doing.

Malfunction clearance is another time when I see it more often. Talk about one of the worst times. I really do wish anything other than a tap/rack would require a STOP and resolve. Then a reshoot. (Unless you are teaching a class on malfunction clearance, which would be an exception, of course.)

The answer is DON'T BE AFRAID TO CALL IT!!!
Cody

[joshs]

Context is important, but the fact that the muzzle is tilted slightly up and the finger is inside the trigger guard, means a FINGER call is appropriate.

There is no warning in USPSA once an actual violation occurs. Warnings can be issued when a competitor appears to be about to violate a safety rule, but I've only ever seen this with the 180 rule.

[cclaxton]

There is no warning in USPSA once an actual violation occurs. Warnings can be issued when a competitor appears to be about to violate a safety rule, but I've only ever seen this with the 180 rule.

I do like the IDPA rule...you get a warning. If it is clearly unsafe, then we have the DQ available.
So, don't give me the timer at a USPSA match....I WILL call it.
Cody