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Thread: Discuss: Safety

  1. #1
    We are diminished
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    Discuss: Safety



    What are the odds he was called?

    What are the odds his safety is on?

    What are the odds his trigger weighs more than 2.5#?

  2. #2
    None

    It is not on from what I can call

    pretty likely.


    great example of poor gun handling.

  3. #3
    Site Supporter Totem Polar's Avatar
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    The game becomes the map that becomes the territory.

  4. #4
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    What are the odds he was bringing the gun up onto a target as he clears the barricade (that whole speed over safety thing Nyeti correctly harps on) and his trigger finger is not in the view of the RO so a call can't be made anyway at that moment?

    As a USPSA RO/MD if I DQ'd every participant I saw for movement with finger on trigger or reload with finger on trigger I'd shoot alone pretty quick. My definition of "on" is a lot more unforgiving than many.

    The #1 response is "It wasn't ON the trigger" (1/4" of air is enough for some and USPSA rules don't stipulate a hard frame index just "visibly outside of the trigger guard" which is not always so easy to spot as in the photo) or "No it wasn't" (and I truly believe they don't consciously register their finger position which means they truly think they are being wronged vs. a 180 violation they know they committed). The fact that the offense can happen for 1/4 of a second or less and the angle I need to get a for sure view is borderline dangerous for me as well doesn't make the call any easier to make (I'd bet the photo was taken with a remote camera as no one would want to be at that angle relative to the shooter).

    None of that gets into the question of was the gun being brought up onto target in the photo and/or completely out of view of the RO. Nyeti has said (and he's right) that a lot of decisions in competitive shooting are made in favor of speed over safety like when exactly one gets onto the trigger during target acquisition. The fact that we're running fast with hot guns trying to shave tenths off our time and at the limits of our ability to shoot fast doesn't help the trigger discipline decision process.

    If I had a set of the video camera glasses that record my exact POV then the replay would at least eliminate the debate and get through some folks defenses. Between the very tight angles, fraction of a second and movement it's very hard to make a positive call.

    Here's how it usually pans out.

    Me - "You were running with your finger on the trigger."

    Them - "The gun was indexed on the next target and I was bringing it up for sight alignment as I took my last three steps and besides it only looked like that to you, my finger was actually 1/16" outside of the trigger guard but still in line with the trigger so you were mistaken."

  5. #5
    Site Supporter Slavex's Avatar
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    In IPSC the first thing I would take into consideration is, how many steps has he taken? More than 1 step, and truly off target, he's done. But from this photo, I can't call anything. He is still up high enough that he could be indexing onto a target, so even the more than 1 step thing would be up in the air, as it's ok to move with the finger in the trigger so long as you are actually shooting at or aiming at targets.
    per, 8.5.1
    Except when the competitor is actually aiming or shooting at targets,all movement must be accomplished with the fingers visibly outside the trigger guard and the external safety should be applied. The firearm must be pointed in a safe direction.

    I've seen the argument made that one doesn't need to be using the sights to be actually aiming at a target (if it's close enough and so on).
    This is the rules of the game. And pictures like this don't really tell us much.
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    Rob Engh
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  6. #6
    Member BaiHu's Avatar
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    My experience is very limited in competition (mainly time, money or both lately), but I have to present a few questions/statements first:

    1) if you have an RDS, can you even be 'on sight/s' at that angle? Does the muzzle 'count' in a rule book somewhere?
    2) without knowing where the target is, I'd say this is hard to judge if he's just about to point shoot on a target 3 feet away.
    3) given the angle of his muzzle, can that finger position ever be considered safe? If he pulled the trigger at that freeze frame, it looks like he'd be shooting over his head in probably another yard or so.
    4) if the rule isn't a hard index on the frame, then you are opening the circle of safety to too wide of a margin IMO. However, without high end technology or inviting the drone club over to monitor, I don't see how you catch this consistently enough to enforce it fairly (there's that 'f' word again).

    Lastly, what is the point of having hair triggers in a sport with people running around? I could make a counter argument to race car driving and leave it at that...but seriously, even when a car crashes in a closed track, conceivably there is at least a semi-conscious guy in somewhat control of the projectile here and they rarely go up and over a safety wall and into a neighboring house, nuclear power plant, etc. On the other hand, once a round is fired at the angle presented in this picture, there's no 'safety' that will minimize the damage caused by this discharged round.
    Fairness leads to extinction much faster than harsh parameters.

  7. #7
    Member olstyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaiHu View Post
    4) if the rule isn't a hard index on the frame, then you are opening the circle of safety to too wide of a margin IMO.
    Changing the rule to the way you seem to want it would require an exemption for paddle mag release pistols, like recent Walther & HK offerings, so that their users could reload while moving without being in violation. (I use my trigger finger to actuate that type of mag release.)

    Even absent that concern, I agree with you that enforcement would be problematic at best. I've seen ROs miss calls like that before, usually due to viewing angles where I could see it happening and they couldn't. At least once, it was a new shooter running with his finger inside the trigger guard, so I gently mentioned to him after his run that he had been doing it and that he would probably want to be careful to avoid it in the future. Thankfully, he either took it well or just didn't feel like starting a fight about it.

    Regarding the picture Todd started the thread with, I think it's hard to come to any definitive conclusions without another angle, or at least a course diagram with his position marked on it. As it is, we really can't see what's in front of the shooter. As others have said, he may driving the gun toward a target that's visible just past the edge of the barrier.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slavex View Post
    . And pictures like this don't really tell us much.


    This.


    One frame taken out of context gives very little detail. Just like the guys bitching about high muzzles or fingers on trigger before full extension in a press out type draw
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  9. #9
    Member Peally's Avatar
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    Agreed on not enough info. I know if someone took a snapshot of me shooting depending on the angle people may be flailing in horror. I certainly don't place my finger along the frame for every single little transition (although I do shoot DA/SA, I can't speak strictly for open shooters)
    Semper Gumby, Always Flexible

  10. #10
    We are diminished
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigT View Post
    One frame taken out of context gives very little detail. Just like the guys bitching about high muzzles or fingers on trigger before full extension in a press out type draw
    Wow.

    Here's what I can tell from that one frame: his finger is on the trigger while his sights aren't on the target.

    For everyone who is justifying this because: game, all that does is reinforce the idea that these games are giving up cardinal safety procedures for the sake of speed & fun.

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