Discuss: Safety

[rwa]

This isn't a discussion about the rules of a game. This is a discussion about when is it safe to get on the trigger.

The OP chose to use a photo of a world class IPSC shooter from a major match. I replied to the original post and the original questions as I see it through the eyes of a Chief Range Officer. In the photo, the shooter is indeed "safe" getting on the trigger as he brings the dot to the popper face.

Is it possible that getting on the trigger, just like almost every other aspect of shooting, whether competition or self defense related, is entirely situationally dependent and reliant on a countless number of variables?

Nineteen pages deep and the most valuable answer finally appears. When I run an IPSC stage with my race gun, IPSC safety, IPSC rules, and my personal sense of safety apply. The square range is not the same as a restaurant full of people, a bank lobby, or God forbid, a school cafeteria.

Likewise, a NASCAR race track is not the same as Interstate 25 through Denver at 5:30 pm, or downtown NYC. Just look how "unsafe" NASCAR drivers are when they race. They follow too close, stay is other driver's blind spot, cut folks off, never use their turn signals, and the list goes on and on... Obviously both getting on the trigger and getting on the gas are situationally dependent.

[Mike R]

On the thread above, I will make no comments with respect to 1, but 2 and 3 are true. The rules allow you to shoot a target with your finger on the trigger. 4 is also true, not because skills exempt you from safety but a higher level of skill allows you to safely make shots while moving better. It doesn't exempt anyone from the rules.

As RWA asked above, are the rules unsafe? Do we need a change?

Here is an interesting thought on trigger control:

I was dry firing with a 20 oz 2011 trigger with minimal take up and creep this morning. When prepping the trigger on my carry Glock (with a dot connector and all factory springs) it takes significant pressure to take up the slack (roughly to the point where the trigger resets) and then only a bit to pull through.

On the 2011 trigger the presence of my finger on the trigger shoe takes up the slack without constantly maintaining pressure. If you were to take a percentage of the pull weight in take up vs break I'd guess it's something like 5% take up/95% to break. The Glock is probably more like 50/50. Although the poundage is higher on the "second stage" of the Glock I have already engaged the muscles of the hand and forearm in the direction of the trigger pull.

I feel like I have better control with the 2011 trigger-its like clicking a mouse, vs using a spring loaded center punch. It doesn't take tension to maintain a ready to fire position.

Because of that, I can get on the trigger at the earliest safe opportunity rather than before. By this point we've all seen the finger on trigger/muzzle over berm pictures and I'm not trying to rehash that, but I've noticed DA/SA production shooters typically will get their finger on the trigger earlier on the draw than SA only shooters.

At the end of the day its only having your finger on the trigger when the muzzle is in a safe and deliberate direction where you are willing to own any shots fired that we are discussing, and if people took that to the Timmy world that poor fellow in the parallel thread wouldn't have taken a bullet while being cuffed.

[Chuck Haggard]

I have kind of stayed out of this one because frankly I don't shoot as much USPSA as some folks, and my reasons for shooting it are different. My club knows what I am up to, and they are cool with it. Obviously a dude shooting a Glock 19 from a Summer Special and reloading from under a T-shirt ain't trying to win the match at all costs.

In the other trigger finger thread I just dumped this to a "game vs street" question George asked;

Not speaking for Wayne, but lets say I am drawing to a shot, with a bad guy in the open at fairly close range and standing in front of a brick wall and no one is around him, can I safely start to get my trigger finger into the trigger guard at about the 2 position and work the problem as a press-out? I sure can.

Lets say I have that same bad guy at low ready, giving commands, and he decides to fight, can I get my finger onto the trigger and get the slack out on the rise? Sure, with the worst penalty being that my first shot clips the guy's knee or pelvis because I am a little too much "slack out" on the way up.

Most problems are not that clear cut on the street in the cop world, or the military spec ops world, and the penalty for hitting no shoots is vastly greater than one or five seconds. I note that even at the Tac Conference when people realize that the penalty for hitting a no-shoot is 100 seconds that they slow their roll noticeably.
Now, change the match to where Tom gets to keep your guns, your wallet and your car if you shoot a no-shoot and you have to walk home wearing a dunce cap, and see how people start to act.

I get in the other thread where folks are talking "match vs street", totally get it, and get that you may be giving up micro seconds in the match and may not score as well by going a tad slower. Some of us are willing to live with that.

Lots of spec ops guys, and some really famous ones with mad skills, shoot competition, I am not them but I am a big proponent for doing so as well. Although they might be really, really good, obviously Proctor is being a GM, I doubt any of them will end up a national champ because of some of this stuff we are talking about. Maybe I'm wrong, it's been known to happen.

Ref "no shoots", I was in a training where Kyle Lamb talked about almost being fired from Delta, this was just before they were deployed to Somalia and eventually into the Blackhawk Down fight, in fact he was fired and the paperwork just hadn't been done yet, when a senior NCO stepped in and asked the commander to give him a chance to remediate Lamb's training. Lamb had been on a shoot house exercise and had shot a "no shoot" target, that was why he was being fired.

Think about that for a second. He was being FIRED from the unit for shooting a single no shoot on a run through the house.

Said senior NCO was told that he could try and fix the problem, but that if Lamb "fucks up again, you're both gone". The NCO took that challenge, and we now know how CSM Kyle Lamb's career went after that.

[BigT]

There is an overlap. FWIW, every PF member I talk to shoots games. However, the overlap doesn't represent the masses.

You mentioned some names. I personally trained with Mac, LAV, some dude who had C&S build a gun called Trident (who also liked competition ), and some others. I can tell you, without a doubt, that what's depicted on these photo series is a blatant safety violation in their world. Which is why, I presume, Todd called this thread "safety". Mac, who effectively sets up a stage in his class, will get on your ass if you flip a safety off before the gun is leveled, for example.
Now, consider the responses this evoked from the gaming community. Those are:
- TPOG is the last person to talk about it because of PO.
- It is OK, the shooter is almost on target.
- It is OK because the rule 8 point whatever says it is OK.
- It is OK because of our skills.
It is like speaking different languages.

interestingly on Alias's Facebook page last Thursday there is a picture of Pat Mac turning and drawing. Some on this thread would vomit down their shirts if they saw where his finger enters the trigger guard . I know he knows more than me about using guns for real. Not saying it's right, but that what's in the pic.

As as a gamer the point has been made that the dude in the pic is in the process of shooting. There now appears no doubt about that. As I mentioned earlier there are times in defensive training we shoot without a visual on sights. And there are times when as gamers we do the same.

ps I have also trained with some of the names I and you mentioned , and while I can't speak for them , do think they may see this as not a safety failure in context.

[YVK]

I think this is a classic example of people doing what they think they're doing vs doing what they are actually doing. Irrespective of their level of expertise. I believe that people get on triggers earlier than they think. One reason I stopped carrying Glocks because I know I did. Perhaps not a purist way of dealing with it by putting an LEM or DA pull between my finger and bang, that's what I did.

You're right, the context is everything, but I believe that the dudes who practice taking planes down with live ammo while their mates are sitting in hostage seats will have a pretty universal opinion on this particular example.

[JV_]

I think this is a classic example of people doing what they think they're doing vs doing what they are actually doing.

Anytime I see a picture of a clueful shooter doing something different/interesting/askew, I wonder if what they're doing is intentional or a mistake. I know I have plenty of bad habits caught on camera.

[GJM]

I think this is a classic example of people doing what they think they're doing vs doing what they are actually doing. Irrespective of their level of expertise. I believe that people get on triggers earlier than they think. One reason I stopped carrying Glocks because I know I did. Perhaps not a purist way of dealing with it by putting an LEM or DA pull between my finger and bang, that's what I did.

You're right, the context is everything, but I believe that the dudes who practice taking planes down with live ammo while their mates are sitting in hostage seats will have a pretty universal opinion on this particular example.

Leaving aside that this is a competition sub forum thread, when would you advocate putting your finger on the trigger, and does that timing differ with a no-shoot present versus an unobstructed target?

I have heard a very smart, regular poster here suggest that having a longer, heavier trigger* mostly means you will need to start pressing it earlier than with a lighter trigger -- effectively canceling out the safety benefit of the longer, heavier trigger, since the lighter trigger allows you to start pressing it later.


*The trigger weight is a different issue than a hammer, which allows you to thumb it when holstering.

[LittleLebowski]

At times in a subtle way, at other times overtly, PF has historically had a pro mil/LE/timmie but negative competition orientation. The result of that has been many of the very talented competition guys have not been participating. I think that is a real shame, as PF is fantastic forum, and should have a big enough tent that all sorts of shooters, from gamers to face shooters, coexist.

I actually think this thread has broken ground on PF by allowing this particular discussion, which goes to the heart of competition v non-competition to proceed, and be argued on the merits. I think the staff should be commended in a big way for guiding this thread, and taking it from sure disaster, to hopefully the start of a bunch of competitive guys from other places coming and contributing.

Speaking from a Staff perspective, I don't agree with your summation of the PF focus and/or negativity towards gamers but maybe the wrong impression was given or more likely, a vocal group of gamers tried to propagate that impression. Anyway, I've taken quite a few "Timmy" classes and they were good fun, helped me work on some skills that needs working on. That being said, my personal goal is to attend more local matches now that my kids are getting older and I probably would have been better off competing instead of taking training classes. For me, matches and dry fire seem to be the best way to focus myself to become a better shooter. I don't care about the competition aspect of gaming except with regards to furthering my own skills, particularly in stage planning (good god, I suck there!).

Tom's working on the "Banned from PF" badge for the martyrs who have nothing else to do than to find some imagined slight and get banned over it Meanwhile, PF is a shooting competition friendly place but it's not the place for flame wars. There's another forum for that and it seems to serve a needed purpose but please not here.

Insofar as my take on the picture that started this monster thread, I honestly thought the argument was settled when a guy who was there when the picture was taken, actually chimed in.

[Lomshek]

interestingly on Alias's Facebook page last Thursday there is a picture of Pat Mac turning and drawing. Some on this thread would vomit down their shirts if they saw where his finger enters the trigger guard . I know he knows more than me about using guns for real. Not saying it's right, but that what's in the pic.

I'm guessing you mean this pic? That's a lot earlier on the trigger than I strive for (not going to claim I don't screw up when I'm stepping on the gas; maybe that's what he did) but I'm gonna let someone more experienced than me throw rocks at that dude.



(For the purposes of learning it'd be handy to have a video camera operator try to capture my trigger finger as often as they safely can to see exactly when I leave my register position).

[Lomshek]

Double tap!