You do realize the press out is VERY slow and not remotely applicable to the speed required on the USPSA Super Squad?Originally Posted by breakingtime91
You do realize the press out is VERY slow and not remotely applicable to the speed required on the USPSA Super Squad?
Are you just referring to the draw or a presentation after movement, as the shooter appears to be doing in the image? Keeping the gun high as you enter a setup and "pressing out" along a relatively straight line is what most high level competitors do, especially when shooting iron sights.
So let me see if I have this right: Is it your position that the ONLY times a shooter should get a finger call is while loading, reloading, unloading, malfunction resolution, on the draw before the muzzle is downrange, reholstering, when stopped at the end of the COF, and while moving when there is no target available? Where I particularly interested in your answer is when a shooter is moving towards a shooting position and targets are available to shoot. At any point you could choose to shoot the available targets on the move or while stopping or while standing/kneeling/prone. So, as long as your gun is pointed downrange, you could choose to take a shot at any moment when targets are available, therefore no finger calls should be made, right? Please clarify your position on the matter.
Cody
That a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state;
This is simple. Practice makes permanent and it instills habits. What do you want permanent? When I shoot competitively now (which is about pure fun and I could care less about winning anything), I make a very conscious decision to get in the trigger guard late, and I am shooting a revolver. I know it is "match slower" and is not as relevant in a match because the only problem you are solving is what target gets how many rounds and when....not exactly difficult on the stress scale or complex, and there are no variables. I simply do not want to ruin a habit as my primary concern is threat management and problem solving "on the street". I actually know first hand how things get in a real world shooting and plan my training and habit forming accordingly. Others are concerned with winning matches and get to certain rankings or levels and they are habit forming accordingly. There are not a lot of problems until you mix the two.
We had a class last weekend with a solid high level shooter. Guy was early on the trigger on every single draw. No matter how many times he was corrected, he was on just as the muzzle cleared his holster. Never had an ND, was a safe gun handler in regards to muzzle discipline, and fast. The problem was he was also on the trigger every time we gave one of several commands that should have been a draw to a challenge or draw to a ready. Couldn't fix it. I asked if he was a competitive shooter, and in fact that is his primary shooting venue, and really his passion and what he trains for. So, he has built a sub-conscious response. Will it get HIM killed on the street....not likely. Could it lead to some major issues in the remote chance that he does get into a self defense situation, likely....but it is a remote chance. Is it going to get changed....nope. He didn't get the correct reps to fix it, it will be reinforced towards the timer this weekend when he goes back to shooting competitively on the weekends, and it is simply an "is what it is". Until the shooting sports want to DQ their top level shooters, it is never going to change. It will be reinforced all the way down the shooting ranks, and nothing is going to change it, and the folks like me in the defensive training arena should actually just STFU about it as nobody cares and it doesn't really affect us....it's their sport, let them work it out. With that said....the same folks who use their sport abilities as a pedigree in my world could have the same courtesy and STFU about what is correct in my world....because these kind of draws have some very bad implications in that world, and we have plenty of cases of very negative results with very real harm being done. I can think of one family with a very dead 18 year old due to this kind of cross pollination. Yea, it didn't get the shooter killed on the street, but someone did...which doesn't get addressed by all the little snarky sayings.
Fact, it is "slightly" faster to get on a trigger early. That is important at some level of shooting sports. It is not important in managing lethal force applications on humans in complex problems that have zero to do with shooting sports. At this point it is a match gun handling versus tactical gun handling. In this part of the forum...I would say the match gun handling wins. If this was the issue elsewhere, like the LE forum, it would not be the way to do things and down right wrong.
Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
"If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".
No, you are completely misconstruing my words, for a longish movement you bring the gun back to chest level. When you start to get into position you bring the gun back up to eye level, while doing so you take the slack out of the trigger just like a draw.
To reiterate YOU AREN'T WALKING AROUND WITH YOUR FINGER ON THE TRIGGER. As you approach the last step to a shooting position you bring your weak hand back onto the gun and you start taking out the slack on the trigger as you bring it up to eye level on target. At that point you are considered actively engaging targets. The only difference between other divisions and open is the transition target to sights, and how much slack that needs to be taken out of the trigger.
Now as far as your scenario, I've seen low level shooters actually move toward visible open targets with their sights aligned and fingers on trigger. I've never RO'd an example of this, but I would be hard pressed to DQ them as they are actively aimed in on the targets.
Last edited by PPGMD; 04-03-2015 at 09:11 AM.
Well said Darryl
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www.agiletactical.com
I don't think anyone is saying that- you are trying to take a reasonable position and make it unreasonable.
People should not get a finger call while they are engaging targets, assuming none of the other special cases you pointed out apply. What does it mean to engage targets? Are you of the position that if someone has a miss, that means their finger was on the trigger while their sights were aligned on the target, and therefore they should be DQed?
If someone has their finger on the trigger and gun pointed over the berm, assuming there are no targets available on the top of the berm, that should be a DQ, i.e. the screencaps of Todd posted here would all be grounds for a DQ. I asked a question about that, and nobody will answer it, because operate. But who are you to say that the shooter in the original post is not engaging a target? Especially since you and others jumped in without looking for more pics, or seeing the stage layout, or watching it first hand.
Here is a picture I took at Nats of another Open super squadder on stage 10, the stage before the original pic posted.
You can see the dust from where he kicked off from the start position at the buzzer as he is decelerating into position. His finger is clearly on the trigger (and clearly within sight of the RO in the left of the picture). It is for several steps of deceleration but he is engaging an array of targets, so no DQ. And no DQ necessary.
Despite both of these competitors running sub 2 lb triggers, with minimal pull lengths, neither of them let one go unintentionally. If they did, it would be grounds for a DQ.
I've watched the shooter in the original picture take 2 alphas on a full sprint at 12 yards. You can watch his videos and you will see that he does get his finger on the trigger to engage targets, if he is breaking away hard from a position, or retreating, or otherwise not engaging targets his finger is clearly out of the trigger guard and straight.
The fact that so many people in this thread have brought up "race guns" and how unsafe the picture is, asserting clearly their ability to armchair DQ the guy over a single frame without questioning where the muzzle actually is in relation to the target, gives me little hope that we can have an actual discussion on this topic. The groupthink seems too strong. Yes, people can shoot on the move. You can see Todd's PT post on All or Nothing: Unsighted Fire. These guys practice to the level that they can use their sights on the move.
I'd post my own video of the match, so you can see the stage layouts and relative positioning, but I don't think anyone still arguing for "safety" is interest in that. Besides, I am pretty sure I would be DQed from pistol-forum.com for shooting on the move and a billion "finger" calls.
Sure. Low probability hits at decent speed are pretty easy/simple with the press out. I think competition gives us all alot of good stuff, I just don't think this is one of them. nyeti said what I think and since more will notice his words, i will bow out.
Nyeti,
That is a training scar pure and simple. There is no reason in USPSA to get on the trigger that early, in fact he might send himself to DQ for a Blizzard as there is a chance he will crank off a round within 3 yards of his body.
I was always taught, and maintain that there is no speed advantage to getting on the trigger before both hands come together on the gun at chest level. And then only if you made the conscious decision to fire. In fact to prevent such a training scar Bruce made us practice the press out not from the holster but from the position that the hands come together. And had us do number of draws where you never got into the trigger because you've not yet made a decision to fire, and suggested we incorporate it into our dry fire and range practice to prevent such a training scar.
Not all of them have his finger in the trigger guard. One of them shows him dropping a mag with his trigger finger, he's running a reversed Glock magazine catch.
Plenty of people here shoot on the move, and use their sights while doing it.
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