Buying a gun for a woman (wife, GF, sister, etc.)

[TGS]

Rob,

I would give it to her mostly stock, and as she finds out what she does/does not want, you can then point out different options and let her change things around.

I hold this view simply because if she makes it hers, she'll be more likely to shoot it. It's the same behavioral mechanism at work as in the selection process. I'm with Kathy in regards to forcing options onto people.

In response to Tom's comment about grip size, I think it's hugely dependent. Just because someone is a woman with small hands does not mean they will shoot better with, or even like a small grip. My GF recently selected a classic SIG grip instead of the E2 grip. She outright disliked the E2 ergos, and is clearing high-40s on Dot Torture at 5 yards with the classic SIG grips....which by the judgement of the gunternet, she shouldnt be able to shoot well or enjoy.

It's all personal, going back to letting her find out what she wants instead of telling her what she wants.

[45dotACP]

If there is one, I recommend finding a trainer first. Some basic, intro classes with a few different types of guns. There's a trainer in my area who is a female USPSA shooter (B class maybe A I think...) who trains beginners and has a women's only class with a "gun buffet". She starts the beginners with .22's then moves to a centerfire. I recommend something like that, then the lady friend will have an idea what she wants, and the information she has is "hers" instead of "this is the gun my boyfriend helped me buy."

Girls who are independent are probably more likely to like shooting. And girls that are independent, like that independence stuff...

Just my 0.02

ETA: I can't read. As for modifications, I'd let her modify it as she prefers. Let her try out different types of sights and triggers. If she wants to chase performance she'll do her homework. If she wants to achieve competence, a set of night sights is probably all I'd put on her gun.

[TGS]

Is there something about my post that leads you to believe this is what is going on here?
I thought maybe I wrote something wrong so I went back and re-read, and I don't see it.

She wants a gun, she is willing to learn, she's just not going to do the whole "go to the range every week for the rest of my life and shoot dot torture and the fast drill because:Internet" thing. She *may* yet be encouraged to do more, but right now at the very least she wants the gun, and is willing to learn the basics. Did I not convey that clearly to begin with?

Your OP does come off as you're giving her a gun with what you want on it, because you think that's what she should want.

Your defensiveness about the selection process comes off that way, as well.

[MDS]

I'm tempted to say that if she'll put up with rob, she'll put up with any old gat, but that might be misinterpreted as something other than good-natured ribbing.

So instead I'll impart this, which is as close to wisdom as I've got access to: get her a copy of the one she's liked best so far, introduce her to Simon at Boresight, and let her take it from there!

[pax]

Rob,

Can't see faces or hear voices online, and sometimes that makes it tough to communicate clearly. Please forgive any harshness you 'hear' in my online voice; the point was absolutely intended but the harshness was not.

Here's the quote I keyed off of in your initial post:

My question is, do you advocate for giving a new shooter, particularly a woman, especially one that is unlikely to actually shoot the gun beyond initial training and other possible "forced" events, a gun that is stock or a gun that is modified? If modified, to what criteria?

You went on to say that if she was a dude, you'd be more likely to expect her to get serious about shooting and would base your recommendations for a woman new to shooting on the low expectation you have for her continued commitment to learn.

That's why I said I'm not a fan of forcing guns into the hands of people who aren't willing to put in the work of learning how to use them safely and well.

Sex has nothing to do with this, by the way. Whether it's a man or a woman, if someone isn't willing to learn how to use the gun, then the gun isn't the right tool for that person. That's true no matter how sad that decision might make someone else. We see this kind of dynamic most often play out in the man pushing his wife into shooting, but I can tell you from bitter personal experience that some of us walked down that road the other way around, and it's just as futile and wrong.

For the past 12 years, I've worked with men and women on the range in serious shooting classes. Anyone who's ever seen my website knows I'm all about helping women decide to protect themselves, showing women the basics of self defense and helping them learn to use their firearms in effective ways. Given what I do for a living, it's safe to say that I'm a big fan of both co-ed and women-only classes, not just at the basic levels, but at more advanced levels too -- and for a lot of different reasons.

One of the biggest advantages of a women-only format is that it gets women away from the well-meaning but pushy guys in their lives, so that they can focus on their own learning process instead of being so wrapped up in keeping The Husband happy that they have no idea what they want for themselves or can do for themselves. When we take that relational pressure out of the picture, they're then free to look at their own choices and their own mindsets and their own commitment to protect themselves. They're also able to think about their gear choices in a realistic way that fits into their own lives. They compare notes with other women in class, and based on those conversations, some of them will choose carry guns that their husbands wouldn't necessarily choose for them. They also compare techniques, including some that don't work well for someone's boyfriend, without the guy in question making puppy dog eyes at his girlfriend for not doing things exactly the same way he'd do them if he were the one making the choices. They themselves own the process.

Women who own the process themselves -- rather than simply being guided along someone else's path -- are far more likely to become serious shooters and lifelong learners. Like a small child helping a butterfly out of a coccoon, we can cripple the new shooter's flying muscles if we help her too aggressively through the very personal process of deciding how she will protect herself.

So that's what I responded to and that's why I said what I said.

One more thought. This is probably totally wrong of me, but when I see a guy asking other guys, "What have you done with your females?" I do tend to mentally hear the whole thing being read aloud in a Ferengi voice.

pax,

Kathy

[rob_s]

Your OP does come off as you're giving her a gun with what you want on it, because you think that's what she should want.

Your defensiveness about the selection process comes off that way, as well.

If there any defensiveness it's because I'm mad at myself for thinking this crowd would actually be able to read the entire post and offer specific feedback while giving the OP the benefit of the doubt and focus on the topic at hand instead of reading the the thread title and thinking they get to show how smart they are and that they know better than the OP. It's not defensiveness, it's frustration with the fact that virtually no posts are about the modification of the pistol and instead is directed towards the posters making themselves feel intelligent, and trying to re-direct the discussion to something useful.

Mods, feel free to lock & trash. I've Gotten what I need and should have expected. There has been little to no discussion of the topic I intended which was about the modification, not the broader subject.

[SAWBONES]

One of the biggest advantages of a women-only format is that it gets women away from the well-meaning but pushy guys in their lives, so that they can focus on their own learning process instead of being so wrapped up in keeping The Husband happy that they have no idea what they want for themselves or can do for themselves. When we take that relational pressure out of the picture, they're then free to look at their own choices and their own mindsets and their own commitment to protect themselves. They're also able to think about their gear choices in a realistic way that fits into their own lives. They compare notes with other women in class, and based on those conversations, some of them will choose carry guns that their husbands wouldn't necessarily choose for them. They also compare techniques, including some that don't work well for someone's boyfriend, without the guy in question making puppy dog eyes at his girlfriend for not doing things exactly the same way he'd do them if he were the one making the choices. They themselves own the process.
...

Women who own the process themselves -- rather than simply being guided along someone else's path -- are far more likely to become serious shooters and lifelong learners.

Amen to all of that; excellent points!

The difficulty is in locating a not-too-inconvenient women-only class, and one taught by an experienced woman with genuine teaching skills, and one in which the women attendees will have opportunity to try shooting different guns with different actions!

Those are a lot of things to ask for, all at the same time and place.

My wife was fortunately able to take such a class quite a while ago, taught by Vicki Farnam and Marti Tueller.
She prefers revolvers, in spite of the fact that the very first gift I ever gave her some twenty-odd years ago was a G19.

[Clay]

Rob, I guess my point was, with my wife anyways, setting up (sights mostly) the guns a specific way right off the bat was a bad idea that cost me money. Same with buying holsters, spare mags, etc.. I would take it slow and let her settle on a platform first. I don't think I would customize a gun for someone who hasn't really figured out what works for them yet.

[LittleLebowski]

If there any defensiveness it's because I'm mad at myself for thinking this crowd would actually be able to read the entire post and offer specific feedback while giving the OP the benefit of the doubt and focus on the topic at hand instead of reading the the thread title and thinking they get to show how smart they are and that they know better than the OP. It's not defensiveness, it's frustration with the fact that virtually no posts are about the modification of the pistol and instead is directed towards the posters making themselves feel intelligent, and trying to re-direct the discussion to something useful.

Mods, feel free to lock & trash. I've Gotten what I need and should have expected. There has been little to no discussion of the topic I intended which was about the modification, not the broader subject.

Knock off the en masse insults, rob. Feel free to rage quit.

[23JAZ]

I'm sure this is something many here have done, although perhaps on,y once or twice, so I thought it might be interesting to compare notes.

The last time I did this I bought a stock Glock 19, a drop/offset holster, a belt, and mag pouches and sent my GF to a Randy Cain 2-day ladies only handgun course. Eventually the gun went to Boresight Solutions for an extreme grip reduction, and now appears to have some sort of big orange square front sight on it (which I may have actually installed before the class, can't recall), unsure of the trigger but definitely a G17 bar and feels lighter than stock, vickers mag button, stock slide stop. Still have the gun, don't have the girl (she died, so please hold the smart remarks).

This time around my intent is to be pretty much the same to start except that I intend to outfit the gun with the sights, trigger, slide stop, and mag release that I like because (a) I'm still more likely to actually ever shoot the gun and (b) I think standardizing is good and (c) I think she'll benefit from the same modifications as I find they make the gun easier to shoot.

My question is, do you advocate for giving a new shooter, particularly a woman, especially one that is unlikely to actually shoot the gun beyond initial training and other possible "forced" events, a gun that is stock or a gun that is modified? If modified, to what criteria?

If this was a dude, that I thought was interested in getting serious about shooting, I'd probably advocate for starting with a stock gun and modifying as-needed. But given that this is a somewhat reluctant shooter (she wants a gun, may not want to shoot/practice/train much but can be encouraged), my thinking is that maybe it's best to set her up for success as much as possible to encourage continued participation. If it's easier for her to get hits, and manipulate the controls, right out of the gate then she might be more likely to get out and practice or even join me at matches, etc.

Thoughts? What have you done with your females in the past? How'd it turn out?

Find the gun she likes and have her shoot one that is stock and a few with different mods (if possible). That way she can see what she likes and doesn't like.