Adequacy Of Buffalo Bore .45 ACP +P 230 gr JHP

[GJM]

My initial though was that it would be, but some of the research that I've done indicates that black bears tend to retreat when exposed to noise/pain (grizzlys, on the other hand...), so that makes the JHP a viable alternative-especially an amped-up JHP. Keep in mind that my research on this is not all that in-depth, so anyone with greater expereince/advice would be welcome to contribute to the thread.

Best, Jon

Here is the problem with that train of thought. If your bullet can't penetrate the brain, you are relying on the equivalent of a psychological stop by the bear. So be able to penetrate the brain, or if you are going with the psychological stop it hardly matters what you carry? I do the same analysis all the time, except with brown bears.

[SamAdams]

The area where the OP mentioned doesn't produce particularly large black bears. It's not Alaska or British Columbia.
One of the loads on "The List" would probably do the job for defensive purposes.

Check out the following website. The professional hunter is now in Africa, but he lived and guided in Washington State and up in Alaska. He also did bear control. He was involved with or oversaw the taking of hundreds of black bears over the years. If you websearch his name or his online name JJHACK you should be able to find his thoughts on handguns and bears. He posted online and also wrote articles found in Bear Hunting magazine. As I recall, for black bears he suggested a robust hollow-point. That will anchor a black bear, he'll swat at the wound like it was a hornet sting which should help set him up for more killing shots if needed. For the big bears - griz, brownies, etc you need to go for deep penetration and bone busting - hard cast lead wide FP. But these aren't the bears you'll run across in the area mentioned. - - For awhile he guided for cops who wanted to use their service pistols to hunt black bears. Hack wasn't impressed. They had to expend a lot of lead and he feared that an angry bear would harm his tracking dogs. The bears did eventually die however. With hunting, you hope to make a single clean shot, maybe with one more for good measure. Hack recommended use of a revolver if handgun hunting for black bears. For defense he preferred a revolver with some hollow points - something like XTPs would be good - with flat wide meplat hard cast lead in a couple of cylinder chambers if additional killing shots were needed IIRC. - Of course, hunting black bears and defending yourself against one are entirely different things. A websearch should come up with specifics:

http://www.huntingadventures.net

P.S. - black bears tend to run from humans, but I've been stalked by one and a buddy was caught up in a tree stand with one below going after him. In both instances we were hunting other game and the bear hadn't known we were humans till very close (camo & wind direction).

[LSP552]

I want a Glock that I know will penetrate a bear's skull. We try and get to Alaska every couple of years and I generally take a warm loaded Blackhawk .45 Colt. I've given serious consideration to Glock 20 but GJM's heavy 10mm reliability experiences scares me a bit. I've also thought about the .40, but never really considered the .357 SIG before.

[GJM]

FIFY

I want a Glock that I know will reliably function while using a load that WILL reliably penetrate a brown bear's skull

[LSP552]

FIFY

Yes that^

Sooooo....the answer is?

[GJM]

Check out the following website. The professional hunter is now in Africa, but he lived and guided in Washington State and up in Alaska. He also did bear control. He was involved with or oversaw the taking of hundreds of black bears over the years. If you websearch his name or his online name JJHACK you should be able to find his thoughts on handguns and bears. He posted online and also wrote articles found in Bear Hunting magazine. As I recall, for black bears he suggested a robust hollow-point. That will anchor a black bear, he'll swat at the wound like it was a hornet sting which should help set him up for more killing shots if needed. For the big bears - griz, brownies, etc you need to go for deep penetration and bone busting - hard cast lead wide FP. But these aren't the bears you'll run across in the area mentioned. - - For awhile he guided for cops who wanted to use their service pistols to hunt black bears. Hack wasn't impressed. They had to expend a lot of lead and he feared that an angry bear would harm his tracking dogs. The bears did eventually die however. With hunting, you hope to make a single clean shot, maybe with one more for good measure. Hack recommended use of a revolver if handgun hunting for black bears. For defense he preferred a revolver with some hollow points - something like XTPs would be good - with flat wide meplat hard cast lead in a couple of cylinder chambers if additional killing shots were needed IIRC. - Of course, hunting black bears and defending yourself against one are entirely different things. A websearch should come up with specifics:

http://www.huntingadventures.net
.

Google turned this up:

http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...ack-Bears-cont

Some things he says aren't giving me a good feeling. For instance, this selection from the link above:


So what are the cartridges which are failures, and the cartridges which are gems in the handgun world according to my experience with hundreds of bears killed? The bad choices are the 38 caliber the 9mm, and the 40S&W. These three should be strictly police work, targets or plinkers. The 40 S&W, and 9mm need cleaning and attention daily. I have seen plenty of these semi-autos fail to cycle with pine needles jammed into them and leaf mulch or dirt in the action. They seemed to have the highest level of cleaning and maintenance needed by far. Revolvers on the other hand seem to be trouble free and made for hunti

[SamAdams]

@GJM - beats me. I suppose it all comes down to the context. He guided hundreds of paying clients on hunts, not in an urban environment. Perhaps the average Joe has less problems with revolvers out in the boonies than semi autos. Not relevant to me. The context he speaks about is hunting. And hunting is different than defense. I mention the man because he likely has much more experience than most people when it comes to actually killing black bears. - - IMO there is value in considering the opinions of one with this much experience. I've never shot a black bear with a service round. I would never hunt one with such a round either (have hunted them with rifle, revolver, and bow). - - - This is what I took from the numerous online postings and the magazine articles I read by the man - for BLACK BEAR consider a robust hollow point. It should be of heavy construction. If you use it in a revolver, you can also load some hard cast WFN in the cylinder. For BIG BEAR go for penetration and tough hard cast WFN.
In big bear country, - Alaska, parts of Montana, etc - I like double action revolvers in 44 Mag, heavy 45 Colt, or 454. In black bear country (except where they grow big) - I've carried such revolvers, plus those in 44 Special, the Glock 20, & Glock 21. The Glocks were loaded with XTPs. And if I was the OP, I would consider the Hornady 230gr +P XTP 45acp loading. Again, the black bears in that country aren't the big boys you find in Alaska and Montana. Totally different situation.

[GJM]

I am not doubting his experience. My point, is some of the statements he makes, make me question either his recollections or his precision. 240 and 250 grain ACP JHP ammo, the reliability of 9 and 40 service pistols, being just a few examples.

I do agree that his recommendation of a .44 magnum class revolver, shooting wide meplat hard cast is a proven solition. If I expected bear trouble, and wouldn't have a long gun handy, that is what I would pick.

[SamAdams]

I am not doubting his experience. My point, is some of the statements he makes, make me question either his recollections or his precision. 240 and 250 grain ACP JHP ammo, the reliability of 9 and 40 service pistols, being just a few examples.

I do agree that his recommendation of a .44 magnum class revolver, shooting wide meplat hard cast is a proven solition. If I expected bear trouble, and wouldn't have a long gun handy, that is what I would pick.

It looks like, to me, that another fellow may have re typed the article and made a typo ? I say this because I had read that article - or ones worded very similarly by the same author - on several different forums and they didn't have those mistakes. - And no doubt about it, when it comes to hunting and bears, he's definitely a revolver guy not impressed by service pistols.


Now what I'm Really interested in is what someone else already mentioned - a Proven and reliable 10mm load for use in a Glock while in griz country ! With a track record of actually stopping a few big bears.

[GJM]

It looks like, to me, that another fellow may have re typed the article and made a typo ? I say this because I had read that article on several different forums and it didn't have those mistakes.


Now what I'm Really interested in is what someone else already mentioned - a Proven and reliable 10mm load for use in a Glock while in griz country ! With a track record of actually stopping a few big bears.

Apologies to the author, if that is the case.

I am not sure there is a proven 10mm load on bears, that functions in the Glock. I would lay money that hard cast would perform best, but I don't have a great track record with hard cast in a Glock, using an after market barrel. I have been very interested in the Federal Trophy Bonded load, but Gary reported so so penetration in one test.

Right now, I am leaning towards running hard cast in my 1066 and 1076, as they have fed everything except the B Bore FMJ 200 penetrator load, which chokes everything. I had JM make me an AIWB, and Dale Fricke make me a Gideon and Gideon like custom that mates to QLS hardware, so I can run them this summer. Rather have a Glock 29 for size, weight and capacity, but reliability trumps those concerns.