Fairfax County Ad Hoc Police Commission

[cclaxton]

I have seen many...too many...cases where Fairfax County has shot and killed innocent civilians or non-threatening suspects. With the Patriot Act, and the threat of domestic terrorism, I see a ratcheting up of the use of SWAT, No-Knock Warrants, Civil Forfeitures (Which I view as Unconstitutional), Sneak-and-Peek Entries(which I view as unconstitutional), and warrantless wiretaps. These are the tools that can turn America into a police state. I don't think that makes me paranoid, but does cause me to raise concerns and make sure we have checks and balances and are being smart, respectful of citizens and Constitutional.

Who have you heard get away with "accidentally and negligently killing someone" especially when they "showed no lethal threat" in our justice system in the last five years? Before you go off googling results of SWAT team members getting acquitted of charges, understand that they were in fact charged in the first place.

Officer Torres who killed John Geer in Fairfax County Aug 29, 2013 while standing in the front door of his own home with no weapon or threat presented, for one. Why impose a 5 year limit? Fairfax Police admitted it was an accident that resulted in killing Sal Culosi. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...012502245.html That officer was never charged although Fairfax County paid a $2M compensation to the family.

You expect an average citizen, who is exactly like you in every way, other than their profession to operate better than you? Do you expect doctors to have superhuman ability of some sort as well?

I do expect my doctor to be a better surgeon than me. Yes, I do expect police to operate using lethal force better than the average citizen. The decision by police to draw a gun and be at the ready, and to place the muzzle on that person's center mass are two different decisions, and should have two different Use of Force triggers (pardon the pun).

Not being condescending or negative, if it comes off as that way I apologize in advance, I am just trying to convey the concept that when a SWAT team shows up, it is because the situation has proven, through verifiable data, that only a SWAT team can handle the task without it becoming too dangerous for the officers and the subject(s) in question. Even then, the chance of a SWAT team member or two going through the door first of getting killed are very high.

I don't want to see a single police officer killed in the line of duty, and neither do I want to see a single citizen who is not a lethal threat killed either. But I don't think that is realistic. We are all equal under the law, or at least we should be. I honor and appreciate all the hard-working, dedicated police officers who put their lives on the line and who have died in the line of duty, but that doesn't mean we should endorse policies that result in innocent citizens losing their lives so that cops won't. That is the road to a police state.

In the end, public safety has not been served when police kill innocent civilians who present no threat. And, isn't Public Safety the mission?
Cody

[voodoo_man]

There are no doubt dozens upon dozens of cases which can be cited for officers shooting a person you may believe posed no lethal threat. That is why the courts do not have a "reasonable by cody standards" level of measurement. They have a "reasonable through the eyes of the officer at that moment" standard. Your opinion is your own and when it goes against case lawx precedent and years of data driven policy, then you may want to reevaluate your stance.

Furthermore, while there are many officers, like myself, who into harms way, all LEOs want to go home at night. there will never be any policy that hinders or prevents an officer from doing what he must in order to survive. Legal or not, if you were in immediate danger would you worry about muzzling someone or what the courts will do? No. You will act. You and me, everyone here, are not different. We chose different professions but does that mean we have to be held to some super human standard? Absolutely not, that concept is laughable. Another concept to understand, if you want LEOs to be held to a massive standard that you set, by all means, start donating hundreds of thousands of dollars so that the average person can be trained to that standard. It costs millions of dollars to get a person into a top tier operator, and they get killed from time to time, why should it be any different with LEOs, based on your standards?

But back to reality, since nothing you are frustrated about will change because the street officer, the one you are complaining about, has no say in the matter. The top brass, the politicians, and other interested and wealthy parties get to play the policy/law game.

Direct your frustration at them.

[Chuck Haggard]

I'm on record several times as stating that cops do not shoot nearly as many people as they should, however, the flip side is that they routinely muzzle people they have zero business putting a muzzle on.

Voodoo, re-read what you just posted and think about what message you just sent, because from the perspective of this particular street cop/firearms trainer/combatives guy who has also worked the hood for a long time and dealt with numerous serious assholes over the years, your message is not a good one, and it's something that will bite you in the ass under the wrong circumstances.

[Ptrlcop]

The fact that you think an officer should be criminally charged for making a mistake while doing the job asked of them shows some lack of understanding regarding our legal system. Courts have repeatedly held that mistakes happen and civil liability is the remedy for those mistakes, not criminal charges.

[cclaxton]

The fact that you think an officer should be criminally charged for making a mistake while doing the job asked of them shows some lack of understanding regarding our legal system. Courts have repeatedly held that mistakes happen and civil liability is the remedy for those mistakes, not criminal charges.

I think *some* cases should end up with criminal charges, but certainly not all. In Fairfax County most criminal charges against police are for things like fraud, theft, battery, perjury, etc, and those are criminal charges. Surely, you don't think those should be civil. The appropriate application of criminal charges sends a message that the police must live under the same laws. If I am a pizza driver and hit a pedestrian late at night who is dressed in black in a crosswalk by mistake, should I be able to use the defense that I drive for a living and therefore I should not be criminally charged? I don't think that defense will fly in almost every jurisdiction I know of.

And, then there is the question of whether you consider "negligence" a mistake. A police officer should very well know the rules of gun safety. When a police officer ignores those rules and policies and is negligence in the performance of their duty, then criminal charges are appropriate. One analogy would be a Train Engineer who falls asleep, smokes week on duty or is texting and causes a train crash, he should be charged with negligence. If this is truly a mistake, such as has happened during training exercises where someone forgot to check downrange before exercising live fire, then not.

When these things come together: Use of SWAT for catching a sports gambler combined with a negligent discharge, then, yeah, criminal charges are appropriate. This is where policy and training have to change, and this is one of the areas we are focusing on in the Subcommittees.

Again, I am not a police basher. I truly appreciate all the great work they perform and the risk and the sacrifice that police endure. But like any job, they need to face the consequences when they are negligent.
Cody

[Ptrlcop]

You clearly need to do more research as to what criminal negligence consists of as none of your examples are even close.

I your pizza driver scenario I doubt he would even get a citation. Hell if the pedestrian survived he would probably be cited for a pedestrian movement into traffic

[Ptrlcop]

I'll give you an even better example. My grandmother was killed by a truck driver who fell asleep at the wheel. He was issued an inattentive driving citation(a small fine) and his insurance company settled with my grandpa for his loss.

I no way should that truck driver go to jail or face criminal penalties for his MISTAKE(different from negligence).

In life sometimes shit happens.

[cclaxton]

Another concept to understand, if you want LEOs to be held to a massive standard that you set, by all means, start donating hundreds of thousands of dollars so that the average person can be trained to that standard. It costs millions of dollars to get a person into a top tier operator, and they get killed from time to time, why should it be any different with LEOs, based on your standards?

I am a big supporter of increasing training funds for the police department. The good news is that Fairfax County is well funded and this will likely happen. The street cops I talk to do not have your view. They have told me off the record that they want to change the way they use force because they want to be held in high regard on the street. It helps them do their jobs when the public has that confidence. I think the problems seem to be coming from entrenched attitudes in upper management.
Cody

[voodoo_man]

I'm on record several times as stating that cops do not shoot nearly as many people as they should, however, the flip side is that they routinely muzzle people they have zero business putting a muzzle on.

Voodoo, re-read what you just posted and think about what message you just sent, because from the perspective of this particular street cop/firearms trainer/combatives guy who has also worked the hood for a long time and dealt with numerous serious assholes over the years, your message is not a good one, and it's something that will bite you in the ass under the wrong circumstances.

Mind highlighting what gave you that impression?

[voodoo_man]

I am a big supporter of increasing training funds for the police department. The good news is that Fairfax County is well funded and this will likely happen. The street cops I talk to do not have your view. They have told me off the record that they want to change the way they use force because they want to be held in high regard on the street. It helps them do their jobs when the public has that confidence. I think the problems seem to be coming from entrenched attitudes in upper management.
Cody

Lets not get things twisted or misunderstood.

I am completely for changing the way things are done, including use of force, as long as it is in the best interest of all parties, especially the officers.

Education of the general public on these topics is the first step to having the community better understand what happens and why it happens, not changing things without understanding why things need to be changed.

The problems do not seem to be coming from upper management.

They are.