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Thread: Fairfax County Ad Hoc Police Commission

  1. #111
    Member cclaxton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hambo View Post
    cclaxton, I'm not a neurosurgeon, in fact I'm not even a doctor. I have no specific knowledge of neurosurgery. Hence I leave criticism of neurosurgeons to other neurosurgeons or doctors with an understanding of what they do. Do you have training or qualifications that make your criticism of the PD SWAT unit valid? Or is this just a list of things you don't like? Do you have some other axe to grind (previously pissed off by cops, etc)? Why should people with years of training and experience change how they operate based on the opinions of people with zero experience or training?
    My experience with Fairfax Police has always been exceptional. I have no personal beef with them.
    But, in my 25 years living here I have seen Fairfax Police make some lethal mistakes and the Commonwealth Attorney has protected them from prosecution even when the County compensates the victim's families.

    Law Enforcement works under the authority of THE PEOPLE and under the Board of Supervisors. We have a right and an obligation to ensure the people we entrust to carry out enforcement activities against THE PEOPLE do so in an appropriate manner. We have a right to argue about what is appropriate. In fact, that is exactly what this Police Commission is about. I spoke with at least two officers last night who fully support what the Police Commission is doing and embrace changes that would help them do their jobs according to the kind of policing THE PEOPLE expect.

    Some in Law Enforcement think it is their job to tell THE PEOPLE to stay out of their business...and to..."Trust us, we know what we are doing." That works well when innocent people don't get killed, and when our rights are honored and we are treated with the respect the Constitution demands. And, 98% of the time that is true in Fairfax County. It is the 2% of the incidents and cases that require Law Enforcement to stand up to their mistakes, to their foul play, and to their overzealous use of force. It is that 2% that Fairfax County Law Enforcement needs to improve, and through what they learn with that 2%, improve Law Enforcement for the other 98%.

    I thank police for their service and their courage and the willingness to do a sometimes gross and difficult job. But IMHO they need to learn to keep their muzzles off of citizens until they are actually a threat. From what I have seen in footage and in testimony Fairfax Police's first reaction is to get a muzzle on a suspect when no weapon is present or is even expected. Use of a gun has, in some cases, become a means to put a violent threat to force a citizen to comply with a simple command such as, "Show me your hands". Really, you need a gun pointed center mass to get a person to show their hands?
    Cody
    Last edited by cclaxton; 05-21-2015 at 09:13 AM.
    That a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state;

  2. #112
    Member cclaxton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnc36rcpd View Post
    cclaxton, you actually seem like a reasonable person in your endeavors to improve Fairfax County law enforcement. That said, I'll throw some thoughts out here.

    Someone claimed that her house was raided, people were muzzled, no one resisted arrest, no weapons were there, and much of this happened after everyone was hooked up. OK, any police reports or even newspaper articles about this? Did it even happen?

    Sal Culosi was unintentionally shot by an FCPD SWAT officer. As I recall, as the officer exited his vehicle, the door swung back on his arm and he unintentionally fired his weapon. You may know more than me, but I have never heard that the officer intentionally put his finger inside the trigger guard or pointed it at Culosi. If you know how to prevent a trigger finger closing on a trigger during a violent physical event when a weapon muzzle can not be completely controlled, please let us know.

    I have never heard that Culosi was a violent person, but he was involved in high stakes gambling. As I recall, the games had armed security. I believe that suspicion was the reason that SWAT was deployed on this warrant service.
    I think this article sums it up pretty well.
    http://reason.com/archives/2011/01/17/justice-for-sal
    There were no armed guards at Sal's house. He was barefoot and wearing a Tshirt.
    All the evidence points to a mistake made by Officer Bullock.
    If this was an ordinary citizen who accidentally shot another citizen, that citizen would be charged and likely convicted of a crime, even if a mistake.
    My issue with this is the Commonwealth Attorney and the Police Dept failed to act in a way that would provide Justice to the Culosi family.
    The other big issue that has generated the Police Commission is the lack of transparency related to controversial police activities. The Oversight Committee is trying to address that as a part of the overall process.
    Cody
    That a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state;

  3. #113
    Member cclaxton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDS View Post
    If more people would participate in civic activities, like the conversations that Cody is having with his police department, and if communities would vote their conscience instead of for "the lesser of two evils" or whichever politician promises more bread and circuses, we might have fewer riots and more transparent government.
    Thanks.

    There is something else happening that I should mention as well: Law Enforcement, families of victims of police errors, and average citizens are talking to each other in a way I have never seen before. Sure, we have had local "crime awareness" picnics when police come and eat burgers and talk about crimes in the neighborhood. But this is the first time that police have to look victims families in the eye in a social environment and begin to answer for why this happened. For many victims families and average citizens, it helps them to learn about the many processes and workings of the enforcement and prosecutorial system. It helps them to understand the issues police have in doing their jobs. Many people had never before seen a threat assessment because up until this commission the Police didn't allow citizens to read threat assessments. They were kept confidential.

    I think this is bringing awareness to both sides of enforcement and prosecution. Well, I am not convinced that the prosecutors are willing to change anything since they sit in a very powerful position right now. But this is not so much about prosecutorial misconduct but about enforcement activities.

    It is really great thing happening here....I think it is creating a basis for improved relations between citizens and those who enforce the laws and those who prosecute crimes.

    I just wish more people were involved...the subcommittee meetings had maybe 10 regular citizen observers there.

    I encourage each and every one of you to go talk to your law enforcement leadership and encourage them to have similar meetings so that the community can work through the very difficult and controversial things that happen through enforcement.
    Cody
    That a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state;

  4. #114
    Member cclaxton's Avatar
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    http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/policec...eral-order.pdf
    General Order 540.1 on Use of Force by Fairfax County.
    Still reading.
    Cody
    That a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state;

  5. #115
    Site Supporter KevinB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cclaxton View Post
    If this was an ordinary citizen who accidentally shot another citizen, that citizen would be charged and likely convicted of a crime, even if a mistake.
    An ordinary citizen would not have been ordered to go to the house... That aspect right there is the difference.

    jnc36rcpd was much more kind of worded than I would be -- your obsessed with this aspect, to the point IMHO of paranoia.
    To my reading it is like your hiding something.

    Really you link to a Balko article? Hardly the source of impartial LE reporting.
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  6. #116
    Member cclaxton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinB View Post
    An ordinary citizen would not have been ordered to go to the house... That aspect right there is the difference.
    So, just because police/SWAT are ordered to go to a house to arrest someone, they should be allowed to get away with accidentally and negligently killing someone who showed no lethal threat? I fail to understand how that means the officer should face no criminal consequences. Don't we expect Law Enforcement to actually operate BETTER than the average citizen?

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinB View Post
    jnc36rcpd was much more kind of worded than I would be -- your obsessed with this aspect, to the point IMHO of paranoia.
    To my reading it is like your hiding something.
    Is there a reason you want to make this personal? I suggest we talk about the very legitimate topic of police/SWAT not operating with sufficient muzzle control, and sufficient safety, and using the muzzle of a weapon to force compliance with unarmed citizens. This paves the way down a dangerous road of a police state. I am not saying police should not defend themselves or enforce the laws. I am saying that police need to exercise AT LEAST the same safety protocols we expect of ordinary citizens, and be able to operate with firearms drawn even BETTER than ordinary citizens. It is not I that have been opaque. It is the Fairfax Police who have stonewalled information in the Geer and the Culosi cases, to name the most prominent ones. As I said, all my interactions with Fairfax Police have been great. But that has not been the case for a number of citizens, who are unable to fight for Justice from the grave.

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinB View Post
    Really you link to a Balko article? Hardly the source of impartial LE reporting.
    If you have reasons to debunk the Balko article, then please provide the facts and the rebuttal. I am all for a transparent discussion of the topics.
    Cody
    That a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state;

  7. #117
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    Balko's article expects us to believe unsourced reporting as being factual. For instance, he attaches animations of what the plaintiff's attorney argues happened. He never mentions who these investigators/criminalists are or what their background is. He tells us how the investigation allegedly progressed, but doesn't source his information.

    You are quick to assert that police muzzle unarmed citizens. What means would you recommend police use to determine a citizen is unarmed?

    I would agree that Fairfax County does neither its citizens nor its police officers any good with their reluctance to release information on officer-involved shootings for months and years.

  8. #118
    Member cclaxton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnc36rcpd View Post
    Balko's article expects us to believe unsourced reporting as being factual. For instance, he attaches animations of what the plaintiff's attorney argues happened. He never mentions who these investigators/criminalists are or what their background is. He tells us how the investigation allegedly progressed, but doesn't source his information.

    You are quick to assert that police muzzle unarmed citizens. What means would you recommend police use to determine a citizen is unarmed?

    I would agree that Fairfax County does neither its citizens nor its police officers any good with their reluctance to release information on officer-involved shootings for months and years.
    Many, if not most, news articles or journalism do not name their sources, or refer to them generally. The real question is whether the Balko information is true or not, and is it factual or not. It may be that LE investigative information was not available...we don't really know. I am not saying I take the Balko article as true. But it challenges us to get to the truth. If you or others here have information that would counter the information, or the facts, then it should be presented.

    As far as what a police officer/SWAT member should do? Last I checked the Use of Force Continuum has not been thrown entirely in the trash. I would start there. The muzzle should be pointed in a safe direction UNTIL the suspect becomes lethal, not before. Guns can be drawn at low ready, high ready, whatever ready, but not pointed until the suspect is actually a threat. That is my opinion as a voting citizen of Fairfax County and last I checked, the Police serve the citizens, not the other way round.
    Cody
    That a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defense of a free state;

  9. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by cclaxton View Post
    So, just because police/SWAT are ordered to go to a house to arrest someone, they should be allowed to get away with accidentally and negligently killing someone who showed no lethal threat? I fail to understand how that means the officer should face no criminal consequences. Don't we expect Law Enforcement to actually operate BETTER than the average citizen?
    I'll just step in on this one.

    Why do you think a SWAT team goes to a house over two or three officers? Is it because there is a situation that has proven itself to be dangerous, time and time again, backed up by data, that requires this type of response? Yes. Police action is widely data driven.

    Who have you heard get away with "accidentally and negligently killing someone" especially when they "showed no lethal threat" in our justice system in the last five years? Before you go off googling results of SWAT team members getting acquitted of charges, understand that they were in fact charged in the first place.

    You expect an average citizen, who is exactly like you in every way, other than their profession to operate better than you? Do you expect doctors to have superhuman ability of some sort as well?

    Not being condescending or negative, if it comes off as that way I apologize in advance, I am just trying to convey the concept that when a SWAT team shows up, it is because the situation has proven, through verifiable data, that only a SWAT team can handle the task without it becoming too dangerous for the officers and the subject(s) in question. Even then, the chance of a SWAT team member or two going through the door first of getting killed are very high.
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  10. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by cclaxton View Post
    As far as what a police officer/SWAT member should do? Last I checked the Use of Force Continuum has not been thrown entirely in the trash. I would start there. The muzzle should be pointed in a safe direction UNTIL the suspect becomes lethal, not before. Guns can be drawn at low ready, high ready, whatever ready, but not pointed until the suspect is actually a threat. That is my opinion as a voting citizen of Fairfax County and last I checked, the Police serve the citizens, not the other way round.
    You can talk all the concepts you want, but like this guy found out saying it and doing it are two different things.
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