Fairfax County Ad Hoc Police Commission

[Hambo]

True hostage rescue capability is a rarity in LE.

[cclaxton]

Before any well meaning but woefully ignorant and borderline delusional citizen sits on their community's version of the Salem Witch Hunt for cops, they need to spend one month riding on patrol, getting spit on by addicts and felons, cleaning the urine and feces out of the cruiser, going to the hospital to get tested for Hep C and HIV due to a needle stick, etc. They also need to spend time serving thosewarrants on child porn and other low risk stuff where big bad Swatties aren't really needed, as well as providing a cathartic experience for that mentally deranged individual waving a knife in the middle of downtown instead of even thinking about using deadly force, because crazies should get a free pass. Then, and only then, should they be allowed to tell me how to do my job. You want me to deal with the dregs so you don't have to? Then sit down, have a Coke and a smile and shut your pie hole tree huggers.

The police operate at the consent of the governed.

That gives all us "woefully ignorant and borderline delusional citizen(s)" a right and an obligation to be informed, set policy, budget and even procedure, when appropriate. And, of course, we should all take very seriously the opinions on operational methods and procedures that Law Enforcement and Prosecutors advocate. Yes, LE is being required to deal with the dregs of society, that is part of the job. But just because the job is risky and hard doesn't give Law Enforcement the right to do that job any way they please.
Cody

[El Cid]

The police operate at the consent of the governed.

That gives all us "woefully ignorant and borderline delusional citizen(s)" a right and an obligation to be informed, set policy, budget and even procedure, when appropriate. And, of course, we should all take very seriously the opinions on operational methods and procedures that Law Enforcement and Prosecutors advocate. Yes, LE is being required to deal with the dregs of society, that is part of the job. But just because the job is risky and hard doesn't give Law Enforcement the right to do that job any way they please.
Cody

Yes - as with any armed force there must be checks and balances with appropriate oversight. I don't believe anyone here is suggesting any element within LE be granted autonomy to do whatever we please. That said, those in the positions of oversight and policy would do well to get out on the street and see what the job entails. The more educated policy makers are on why LE uses certain tools and techniques, the better off everyone will be. You mention this in your post, but how many of your peers understand this concept?

A good example is civilian oversight of the military. The civilian assigns the mission and may include some restrictions (limiting collateral damage - no bombing or shelling of mosques for example). But the military is the expert at knowing how best to accomplish the mission. When the civilian authority begins dictating specifics of how, then you have a recipe for disaster and loss of life. LBJ choosing targets to be bombed in Vietnam is a great example. So was Clinton placing such severe limits on aircrew in Allied Force that the mission was compromised and we had an F-117 shot down. The pilot was rescued but the technology recovered in the wreckage was exploited by all our enemies.

If I suddenly found myself on an oversight board for an airline, I'd familiarize with how and why they do what they do and ask a shit-ton of questions before ever contemplating giving direction. A person can successfully lead a group of people without being a technician but it requires trust in the technicians. Unfortunately LE is one of those jobs that EVERY person on the street believes they know how to do better than those actually doing it.

Does Fairfax run a "citizens academy" or something like that? It can be a very helpful mechanism for showing how challenging LE can be and letting the private citizens see that cops are just good people trying to do a very demanding job for a largely ungrateful society.

[Chuck Haggard]

Without fail, every single Citizen's Academy student that completes the course and does ride-alongs says something to the effect of "I had no idea..."

People think they know something about police work because they watch TV shows. It's really that simple to most people.


I get it, I really do, because I also don't want to be subject to arrest without PC, thrown in jail without trial, or have King George's troops living in my house, but I also don't go to the dentist's office and tell him how he should drill my tooth to fix that cavity.

[LSP552]

A person can successfully lead a group of people without being a technician but it requires trust in the technicians.

It also requires earning the trust of the technician. One earns that trust by learning as much, not rushing to judgement, leaving preconceived notions at home, and acting with the best interest of the community at large.

[Kukuforguns]

Are you under the impression that the linked court case affects the conduct of all police organizations in all of the U.S.?

I was responding to a statement made by Hambo that:

By law, the PD can't just say "fuck it, out of our league" and leave."

As the linked case indicates, Hambo's global statement is incorrect. Do you wish me to find a similar case from every jurisdiction in the United States? Not everyone jurisdiction has had a lawsuit brought against a local LEA seeking to impose liability for a failure to act. In any event, here are some other cases that reach a similar conclusion:

Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005)
Deshaney v. Winnebago Couty Soc. Servs. Dept., 489 U.S. 189 (1989)

If Hambo, or you, wishes to contest my assertion that police do not have an affirmative duty (duty meaning liability for failing to perform) to act to protect the lives of those they serve, feel free to link to those cases.

[Lon]

The State of Ohio holds us responsible:

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2921.44

2921.44 Dereliction of duty.
(A) No law enforcement officer shall negligently do any of the following:

(1) Fail to serve a lawful warrant without delay;

(2) Fail to prevent or halt the commission of an offense or to apprehend an offender, when it is in the law enforcement officer's power to do so alone or with available assistance.

(B) No law enforcement, ministerial, or judicial officer shall negligently fail to perform a lawful duty in a criminal case or proceeding.

(C) No officer, having charge of a detention facility, shall negligently do any of the following:

(1) Allow the detention facility to become littered or unsanitary;

(2) Fail to provide persons confined in the detention facility with adequate food, clothing, bedding, shelter, and medical attention;

(3) Fail to control an unruly prisoner, or to prevent intimidation of or physical harm to a prisoner by another;

(4) Allow a prisoner to escape;

(5) Fail to observe any lawful and reasonable regulation for the management of the detention facility.

(D) No public official of the state shall recklessly create a deficiency, incur a liability, or expend a greater sum than is appropriated by the general assembly for the use in any one year of the department, agency, or institution of the state with which the public official is connected.

(E) No public servant shall recklessly fail to perform a duty expressly imposed by law with respect to the public servant's office, or recklessly do any act expressly forbidden by law with respect to the public servant's office.

(F) Whoever violates this section is guilty of dereliction of duty, a misdemeanor of the second degree.

An M2 can get you 90 days in jail and a fine.

These Deputies were convicted in a case involving the death of an intoxicated person they failed to protect:

http://www.sconet.state.oh.us/rod/do...-ohio-3440.pdf

[Kukuforguns]

The State of Ohio holds us responsible:

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2921.44



An M2 can get you 90 days in jail and a fine.

These Deputies were convicted in a case involving the death of an intoxicated person they failed to protect:

http://www.sconet.state.oh.us/rod/do...-ohio-3440.pdf

Thanks for the citation and analysis. For those who don't read the opinion, it's the Taco Bell case where officers actually apprehended the drunk offender, drove the offender to a Taco Bell where he knew no one, and then left him unsupervised at the Taco Bell, and the drunk offender walked into traffic with fatal results.

The statute, however, will not penalize the officer "when it is [not] in the law enforcement officer's power to do so alone or with available assistance." Since the law does not expect officers to predict the future, I expect any competent attorney would argue that a reasonable officer could conclude that he could not have apprehended an offender or halt an offense by himself or with available assistance. This would seem to be exactly what Hambo meant when he said, "out of our league." Juries typically give officers substantial leeway in connection with reasonable judgment.

Before someone concludes that I think that officers should have an obligation to handle a situation that is "out of our league," I don't. I don't expect officers to commit suicide. The Taco Bell case involved a situation in which the officers clearly did have the ability to apprehend the subject (because they did), but instead of resolving the situation, they created a new problem with predictable dangers.

[Coyotesfan97]

Much of what people think of as "SWAT" is not SWAT, it's dope teams, many of them dudes with some gear and zero training. These are not the same thing.


SWAT, real SWAT, on a scene has traditionally been what lowers the level of violence on an activity, whatever that may be. I know in LA the percentage of officers involved shootings is far lower when SWAT is on scene vs having the patrol guys take care of business.

This! You don't like SWAT dynamic entries? Stand by for narcs wearing beards and street clothes doing dynamic entries to save the dope with minimal entry and shooting training. If you limit SWAT stand by for the unintended consequences of sending under trained inexperienced Officers to do the same job.

[Coyotesfan97]

I am the wrong guy to ask, as I am not an LEO. But as a citizen I want SWAT/LEO to be smart about use of force and use appropriate force and intervention. In the case of child porn suspects, if they shoot themselves before the cops enter the house, how can that be a threat to police? If they kill themselves after the police leave, then how can that be a threat to police? Once you have the evidence, then I would think all you have to do is find a good opportunity to arrest them, such as leaving for work, going grocery shopping, mowing the lawn, etc. From the stories here these are usually employed men with seemingly normal lives. I would hope that since it is very likely/possible that someone who was just arrested for child port is at high risk of suicide that we address that like we would hold the suspect and have them evaluated and placed on a suicide watch and treated.

As far as I know "sneak and peek warrants" are not a part of the FCPC oversight.
Cody

.

We have this little saying that suicidal is one step from homocidal. If you care so little about yourself that you're willing to kill yourself what's to stop you from killing the nice Detectives who are there to put you in prison for life. We've had several sex offenders barricade up or engage in shootouts when the Detectives showed up. Guess who got called to resolve it?

Sneak and peek warrants? Never saw one. Never saw one used. The Feds are the only ones I know of who use them. The Intel guys told me they have special teams that travel the country serving them. You don't know when, you don't know how but they serve it for you.