Capacity vs. Performance

[1canvas]

How many people who lost their gunfight lost because they ran out of ammunition? Very, very, very few.

How many people who lost their gunfight lost because they ran out of time? All the rest.

Capacity is nice, but its diminishing returns. Three is better than one, and five is better than three, but once you get up into 8+ its generally a wash as the fight is over one way or the other before you're dry.

Which one do you shoot the accurately the fastest from the holster in the style you would carry daily? Carry that one. I'd take a 10 round mag I shot a tenth of a second faster than a 17 round mag that was that tenth of a second slower for the same accuracy at normal self defense situations.

there is no way to know how many people lost because they ran out of ammo. for me, when I have my wife, kids, or grandkids with me we can't run. I will have my G17 with my plus mag in. by myself 10 rounds in my G30 or G33 is fine.

[Tamara]

there is no way to know how many people lost because they ran out of ammo.

Maybe check and see if the dead dude's gun has any BBs left in it?

(I'm being slightly sardonic, of course, but still... I think if there were a known incidence of a civilian CCW shooter found dead with an empty gat after an actual two-way shootout, it would be getting brought up and linked every time this topic comes up.)

[dgg9]

(I'm being slightly sardonic, of course, but still... I think if there were a known incidence of a civilian CCW shooter found dead with an empty gat after an actual two-way shootout, it would be getting brought up and linked every time this topic comes up.)

I've never heard of one. The closest thing was in a shooting event from one of Tom Given's students, whose gun had 8 rounds aboard, and two attackers. One attacker dropped and the other ran off, just as the student went to slide lock. If the the second attacker did not choose to run off, things might have gone the other way. Of course, the event was unequivocally a "win" but take from it what you will. Maybe multiple, truly dedicated attackers are so vanishingly rare as to not to be a factor.

[LSP552]

I think if there were a known incidence of a civilian CCW shooter found dead with an empty gat after an actual two-way shootout, it would be getting brought up and linked every time this topic comes up.)

I think we need to be careful about not fighting tomorrows battles with todays ideas and equipment. Times and circumstances change, and I'm not sure we aren't headed there again. When I started policing, the 6 shot revolver was king of the world. Now, not so much. Recent events, both abroad and at home, hint to the game changing again in favor of more BBs.

[David Armstrong]

I've never heard of one. The closest thing was in a shooting event from one of Tom Given's students, whose gun had 8 rounds aboard, and two attackers. One attacker dropped and the other ran off, just as the student went to slide lock. If the the second attacker did not choose to run off, things might have gone the other way. Of course, the event was unequivocally a "win" but take from it what you will. Maybe multiple, truly dedicated attackers are so vanishingly rare as to not to be a factor.

They are A factor, but as you suggest they are an extremely rare factor for most of us. It always goes back to the idea of where one wants to compromise on the gun and ammo continuum. I've never been convinced there is that much real difference between the person equipped to handle 95% of situations and the person equipped for 97% of the situations, particularly given the <5% chance of being in any of the situations.

[dgg9]

I've never been convinced there is that much real difference between the person equipped to handle 95% of situations and the person equipped for 97% of the situations, particularly given the <5% chance of being in any of the situations.

I'd go even further. I think you should maximize the 95%, so if there's an 8 shot gun (1911?) that you should really well, you should go that way, giving yourself the best chance within the 95% portion of the bell curve, rather than a 17 rd gun that you shoot less well, or are less able to conceal. My personal opinion is that you should make trade-offs that favor the most likely scenario (in cases where it is really is a trade-off).

[Tamara]

I've never heard of one. The closest thing was in a shooting event from one of Tom Given's students, whose gun had 8 rounds aboard, and two attackers. One attacker dropped and the other ran off, just as the student went to slide lock. If the the second attacker did not choose to run off, things might have gone the other way. Of course, the event was unequivocally a "win" but take from it what you will. Maybe multiple, truly dedicated attackers are so vanishingly rare as to not to be a factor.

I seem to recall another incident sometime not too long back, I think it was down in the ATL someplace, where Sumdood busted up into a guy's apartment and got piled up with a whole Glock 36's worth of 230gr Gold Dots.

I think we need to be careful about not fighting tomorrows battles with todays ideas and equipment. Times and circumstances change, and I'm not sure we aren't headed there again. When I started policing, the 6 shot revolver was king of the world. Now, not so much. Recent events, both abroad and at home, hint to the game changing again in favor of more BBs.

Oh, I absolutely agree. More BBs is the reason I switched from the 1911 to the M&P. I mean, it's not like they bill you for any bullets left in the gun after you use it.

[ToddG]

I've never heard of one. The closest thing was in a shooting event from one of Tom Given's students, whose gun had 8 rounds aboard, and two attackers.

It's instructive to note that Tom himself, who I believe has at least a half decent handle on the Tom Givens shooting database went from a life long .45 1911 guy to a G35 guy more than a few years ago because: capacity.

Also, to echo what LSP552 said -- and to borrow a phrase a very close friend of mine has been bantering about a lot lately -- the emerging threat in the US is moving toward a much greater possibility of more heavily armed, more numerous BGs acting as a team. And while "stand and deliver" may not be the best tactic for the day, it may also be the only tactic available in one sense or another.

More bullets = more options. You may never need those options. You may do fine with the options you create that aren't capacity dependent. But I've yet to meet anyone who wished he had less ammo with him in a fight.

[GJM]

Other than these exceptions (magazine ban states/animal defense/NPE or concealment constraints), I just can't personally envision a reason why I would want to carry a single stack for personal defense in the lower 48 in lieu of a 15-17 round 9mm.

[dgg9]

Other than these exceptions (magazine ban states/animal defense/NPE or concealment constraints), I just can't personally envision a reason why I would want to carry a single stack for personal defense in the lower 48 in lieu of a 15-17 round 9mm.

Speaking as someone who finds the G17 easiest to shoot and easy to conceal, I have to agree.