Morality of carrying a gun in an NPE

[cclaxton]

first, that whoever wants me to follow all the details of their moral code can suck it; and second, that whoever wants to judge me by the details of their own moral code should want me to judge them by mine.

At the risk of sounding pompous or self-righteous, I do want to ask one question: Whether we like it or not, society is judgmental. And, the gun-control community is often looking for excuses to pounce on gun owners. To what extent does getting caught carrying NPE make us look irresponsible, and hurt the public image of gun owners, and thus our ability to move gun rights forward?
Cody

[David Armstrong]

You could stroll down to the English department to find out if you know how to spell. Then next stop could be the math department to help you tally the errors.

It has been my experience that when one declines to discuss the actual topic and instead chooses to focus on things like typing errors (I spell quite well, I type quite poorly) it is pretty indicative of the fact they have nothing cogent to say about the actual topic.

[Chuck Haggard]

At the risk of sounding pompous or self-righteous, I do want to ask one question: Whether we like it or not, society is judgmental. And, the gun-control community is often looking for excuses to pounce on gun owners. To what extent does getting caught carrying NPE make us look irresponsible, and hurt the public image of gun owners, and thus our ability to move gun rights forward?
Cody

At what point does Rosa Parks getting arrested for being uppity harm the ideas she was trying to bring to light.

No, I do not think those topics are one and the same, however how one is look upon often has little to do with what rules one follows.

[David Armstrong]

At the risk of sounding pompous or self-righteous, I do want to ask one question: Whether we like it or not, society is judgmental. And, the gun-control community is often looking for excuses to pounce on gun owners. To what extent does getting caught carrying NPE make us look irresponsible, and hurt the public image of gun owners, and thus our ability to move gun rights forward?
Cody

I think that is a very important point, and goes back to some extent to your post about integrity. The pro-gun community tends to promote the idea of being an honest and law-abiding group when compared to the non-gun community. So when a segment of the pro-gun side takes a position that it is OK to break a law or to be dishonest just because it involves a gun, I think something significant is lost. I think we have seen that here, with arguments that revolve around the idea that it is OK to do "X" as long as it is about carrying a gun, but that very similar situations are not OK. The moral issue certainly is open to debate, but I think the honesty issue is a different thing.

[cclaxton]

At what point does Rosa Parks getting arrested for being uppity harm the ideas she was trying to bring to light.
No, I do not think those topics are one and the same, however how one is look upon often has little to do with what rules one follows.

Really good point. I concur.
Cody

[TGS]

At the risk of sounding pompous or self-righteous, I do want to ask one question: Whether we like it or not, society is judgmental. And, the gun-control community is often looking for excuses to pounce on gun owners. To what extent does getting caught carrying NPE make us look irresponsible, and hurt the public image of gun owners, and thus our ability to move gun rights forward?
Cody

Valid question, but just like people have said the streets will run red with blood from crimes of passion and ND's by untrained citizens carrying firearms......It simply hasnt presented itself as an issue. In reality it has actually been a positive. Ex: the doctor carrying against hospital policy in PA, who saved countless lives when he intervened.

[BobLoblaw]

I think that is a very important point, and goes back to some extent to your post about integrity. The pro-gun community tends to promote the idea of being an honest and law-abiding group when compared to the non-gun community. So when a segment of the pro-gun side takes a position that it is OK to break a law or to be dishonest just because it involves a gun, I think something significant is lost. I think we have seen that here, with arguments that revolve around the idea that it is OK to do "X" as long as it is about carrying a gun, but that very similar situations are not OK. The moral issue certainly is open to debate, but I think the honesty issue is a different thing.

The pro-gun community is not charged with the task of keeping me alive. I am.

[Peally]

That and the pro-gun community is concerned with following the law as far as their values are concerned, not following every single trivial law on the planet.

[Eli]

I've read this whole thread and have nothing very useful to add, but since this is the internet, I figure I might as well.....

I don't consider myself to be a dick, not a great guy, but definitely not a dick. If I'm paid to do a task, I do it to the absolute best of my ability. Only occasionally will I do more than I'm paid for, but NEVER will I do less. I make it a point to be polite to everyone that I interact with, even people that I don't care for. If I have extra and have no pressing need for it, I give to those less fortunate than I, both in time/work (local shelter) and money/goods (charities).

Throughout my entire life of not being a dick, there's a code that I've lived by. It is a particularly shitty code no doubt, but it's mine nonetheless. "My rules are more important than your rules, my loved ones are more important than your loved ones, and I am more important than you."

While it isn't covered specifically in the code that I've chosen to live by, carrying in an NPE does fall into the middle of it somewhere.

[MDS]

I need to reread the PF employee handbook.

You are the PF employee handbook. Written in sanskrit, for all I can tell. But you're funnier and more pleasant than Todd, so it's an overall improvement. (I know, I'm fired. Again.)

At the risk of sounding pompous or self-righteous, I do want to ask one question: Whether we like it or not, society is judgmental. And, the gun-control community is often looking for excuses to pounce on gun owners. To what extent does getting caught carrying NPE make us look irresponsible, and hurt the public image of gun owners, and thus our ability to move gun rights forward?
Cody

That's a fair question, and since it sounds like you're asking it of me personally, I'll answer. But first let's be clear of the question's moral context. If I hear you right, you're implying that it's immoral to make gun-owners "look irresponsible, and hurt the public image of gun owners, and thus our ability to move gun rights forward" - which I don't agree with. It might be perfectly moral for someone who believes in gun control to do those things. So I'll answer in the amoral, more practically political context of wanting to help "make us look" more "responsible," to improve "the public image of gun owners, and thus our ability to move gun rights forward." Let me know if you want me to answer in a different context.

I think irresponsibility with guns is what makes gun owners look irresponsible. You can carry responsibly in an NPE. There are folks in other threads who have been looking for advice to do just that, near as I can tell because they feel a moral imperative to carry in spite of non-permission. Seems pretty responsible to think about that soberly, to consider the risk and the means. By asking about it and discussing it with people ostensibly experienced in such matters, seems to indicate sober consideration and thus a responsible attitude. If that's not the case, if someone is acting irresponsibly, then they are irresponsible. And to the extent that a certain percentage of gun owners are irresponsible, the perception of gun owners as irresponsible is correct - fortunately that doesn't happen very often, at least not in a way that grabs national headlines.

But for most gun owners, I think we can assume that the people who are carrying in an NPE are acting as responsibly as they can in an environment where the social mores are at odds with their personal priorities. For these responsible people, for the majority of people who carry in an NPE, the first rule is "don't get caught." I can't imagine not thinking about NPE carry like I think about AIWB - "if you fuck up, you die." So go above and beyond to be discreet about your carry - be a nazi about printing, practice taking great care about personal touching/hugging, and follow the maxim of "always carry, never tell." Out yourself only when necessary, like the doctor in PA, to save lives. That way, we can focus the conversation on this impossible choice between following rules vs saving lives.

That said, everybody makes mistakes. Or you might be outed through no fault of your own (I don't know, maybe your teenage son is angry at you for taking his motorcycle keys when he got caught street racing, so he calls your boss and outs you.) If you do get caught, you've got a few problems, depending on the situation. The question is specifically about the extent that you'll make gun owners generally look bad, though, so let's focus on that. I think it depends on the details of the situation. For example, the lady in NJ who got caught in an NPE probably did quite a bit to help gun rights in NJ. On the flip side, I can't imagine how getting outed in a situation where you only violated company policy will hurt the public image of gun owners. It's just not newsworthy, so few people beyond some coworkers will hear about the incident. And of those that do, I can't imagine it would do much to sway their opinion of your action - folks who think corporate policy is stupid and should be ignored will continue to think that; and folks who are afraid of guns will continue to think guns owners are bad.

So, I think the extent to which "getting caught carrying NPE make us look irresponsible, and hurt the public image of gun owners, and thus our ability to move gun rights forward" is negligible.