Current J Frame production

[LSP972]

And one last question, I have read that the new barrels are not lead friendly because of the way the lands are cut. I have read that heavy fouling occurs in as little as 60 rounds.

Not in my experience, with a sample of one M-360PD.

Keep in mind that the term "heavy fouling" means different things to different people... and even more pertinent, bullet composition has more of a bearing on barrel/cylinder leading than ANY other factor (assuming proper caliber bullets are used in a particular firearm, etc.).

IOW, current Remington 158gr lead SWC bullets will probably show more leading than Winchester or Federal, as Remington has pretty consistently used a softer bullet alloy... for many, many years.

Then you have bullets cast by reloaders. A meticulous reloader/bullet caster will ensure that his metal has the proper mixture of lead, tin, and antimony. The guy who gets buckets of wheel weights from Bubba's Tire and Donut Shoppe, dumps them in the crawfish burner, and gets MOST of the dross when he skims the clips out... well, let's say his metal composition can be questionable (i.e., soft). And that's assuming the bullets are sized properly for your gun. A combination of soft metal and a couple of thousandths over size can clog up a forcing cone faster than a cat can... well, quickly.

So, as with most things, the answer to your question is... it depends.

That said... I have run the gamut of lead bullets (from high quality commercial offerings to some of those Bubba bullets) through my 360PD; right at 5K worth. The ones I expected to cause leading- the Bubba bullets- caused leading. The "good stuff" didn't. BTW, my definition of heavy leading is when I have to get the special tools- i.e., Lewis Lead Remover- out to clean the revolver properly.

And my opinion of MIM parts-again, with a sample of one- echoes what Chuck has heard. They smooth right up with a lot of use. In my case, shooting the gun a lot.

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[UNK]

OK Thanks I appreciate the info. I do believe you have quite a bit of experience as a revolver armorer and I was hoping you would weigh in.
What are your thoughts on changing springs for a lighter pull. There are spring kits available from a variety of sources, and then there are the APEX kits. I've taken a J frame to a gunsmith for a much improved trigger but honestly I don't know exactly was done. I also don't know about the long term effects of the trigger job because I sold it but I never had any problems while I had it.

Not in my experience, with a sample of one M-360PD.

Keep in mind that the term "heavy fouling" means different things to different people... and even more pertinent, bullet composition has more of a bearing on barrel/cylinder leading than ANY other factor (assuming proper caliber bullets are used in a particular firearm, etc.).

IOW, current Remington 158gr lead SWC bullets will probably show more leading than Winchester or Federal, as Remington has pretty consistently used a softer bullet alloy... for many, many years.

Then you have bullets cast by reloaders. A meticulous reloader/bullet caster will ensure that his metal has the proper mixture of lead, tin, and antimony. The guy who gets buckets of wheel weights from Bubba's Tire and Donut Shoppe, dumps them in the crawfish burner, and gets MOST of the dross when he skims the clips out... well, let's say his metal composition can be questionable (i.e., soft). And that's assuming the bullets are sized properly for your gun. A combination of soft metal and a couple of thousandths over size can clog up a forcing cone faster than a cat can... well, quickly.

So, as with most things, the answer to your question is... it depends.

That said... I have run the gamut of lead bullets (from high quality commercial offerings to some of those Bubba bullets) through my 360PD; right at 5K worth. The ones I expected to cause leading- the Bubba bullets- caused leading. The "good stuff" didn't. BTW, my definition of heavy leading is when I have to get the special tools- i.e., Lewis Lead Remover- out to clean the revolver properly.

And my opinion of MIM parts-again, with a sample of one- echoes what Chuck has heard. They smooth right up with a lot of use. In my case, shooting the gun a lot.

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[LSP972]

What are your thoughts on changing springs for a lighter pull.

Basically, a two-edged sword. Its definitely doable, but the doer needs to KNOW what he is about or bad things can happen.

There are two springs which control pull weight; the main spring, and the trigger rebound spring. The former is VERY difficult to "work" without gooning something up, and is best left alone. J frames use a coil mainspring, which is more complex than the leaf spring the larger revolvers employ. A leaf mainspring can actually be worked, albeit carefully, by thinning the sides slightly, or a strategically located bend. Not so the coil type. Anyway, the trigger rebound srping is what most folks attack; either by clipping coils or replacing with a "kit".

I have installed a half-dozen or so of the Apex kits in Centennial J frames. They work fine, and do lessen the pull somewhat; by how much depends on the condition of the hammer and trigger mating surfaces, the frame bosses those parts ride on, and the timing (hand-to-ratchet fit). I have no experience with any other Apex stuff, but they seem to have a handle on it so I would not hesitate to try whatever else they may have for "regular" DA/SA revolvers. A lighter rebound spring couldn't hurt… up to a point.

The problem with a lighter rebound spring is, if you hit the threshold of trigger return energy you have now made your revolver into a sometimes-shooter. A certain amount of energy is needed to get that trigger back forward. Make it too light, and the cylinder can "skip" in rapid fire (AKA "throw-by"). Worst case, the trigger won't go back fully forward without a manual push. Bad juju.

Most everybody seems to think (because they read it over and over again in gun magazines and the internet) that DA revolvers are simple beasts; much simpler than semi-autos. Wrong. Revolver parts move back and forth, up and down, and around and around… all at the same time. Disturb that delicate balance (as most table-top "trigger jobs" do), and you've got trouble. Generally, when you change one thing on a DA revolver, you must adjust another thing to maintain that balance. A good example is the Apex Centennial spring kit; in addition to the lighter trigger rebound spring, you also get a new firing pin and firing pin spring. Both of the latter are necessary to ensure reliable ignition with the lightened DA pull (no SA capability on these guns).

It would be unethical of me to describe methods of lightening trigger pulls using existing parts. What I know, I learned from working on hundreds of the things; and that sort of knowledge is NOT taught in armorer classes. I have a pretty good idea of how far to go, I have the tools and gauges to CHECK how far I've gone, and parts if I go too far and have to start over. Plus, the current MIM parts are NOT the "same" (property-wise; they look the same and work the same, though) as the forged/milled parts I know so well, so I'd be talking out of my ass in any event if the topic is a post-90s gun.

Here's the best advice I can give you. We're talking J frames here; they are for shooting people when the shooter is under high duress. They are not target guns; in fact, if you enjoy shooting a lightweight example for an extended session, then you are more man than me. With that in mind, the smart move is to live with the trigger that the revolver came with. It passed the gauging and reliability tests at the plant (usually); and as we all know, reliability is the number one factor in a defensive firearm; it MUST go bang when you need it to.

As others here have noted, you can smooth up the action a bit by extensive dry firing. My M-360PD, purchased in 2002 and having had in excess of 5K rounds through it, is every bit as smooth and crisp as the 1966-vintage M-37 I worked long and hard over. The only fiddling I did with that piece was to remove the lock mechanism improperly; but that has been covered elsewhere on this forum. My point here is, after the first thousand rounds or so the action improved noticeably. Live firing accelerates the process a bit, because the recoil actually helps "marry" the working parts to each other. Dry firing will do this as well… it just takes longer.

If you simply cannot keep yourself from tinkering, I can recommend the Apex kit for a Centennial J frame. I'm talking about the enclosed hammer model. AFAIK, all J frames made after 1996 or so have frame-mounted inertial firing pins. Whether or not the firing pin and spring included in Apex kit for the 442/642/et. al. will fit an exposed-hammer example, I do not know. A call to Apex would answer that question.

Any other "kit" offerings, etc., I would be leery of. S&W did, for many years, offer a lighter trigger rebound spring for K frames. Made expressly for the single-action-only version of the K-38, a dedicated target piece, it was (and is) a limited item, highly sought after by mechanics doing PPC trigger jobs. I know of no such goodies ever made by them for J frames.

Sorry for the novella, but this is a complex situation that has no easy answers.

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Simply awesome answer. Thanks for your time and sharing of your knowledge.

Basically, a two-edged sword. Its definitely doable, but the doer needs to KNOW what he is about or bad things can happen.

There are two springs which control pull weight; the main spring, and the trigger rebound spring. The former is VERY difficult to "work" without gooning something up, and is best left alone. J frames use a coil mainspring, which is more complex than the leaf spring the larger revolvers employ. A leaf mainspring can actually be worked, albeit carefully, by thinning the sides slightly, or a strategically located bend. Not so the coil type. Anyway, the trigger rebound srping is what most folks attack; either by clipping coils or replacing with a "kit".

I have installed a half-dozen or so of the Apex kits in Centennial J frames. They work fine, and do lessen the pull somewhat; by how much depends on the condition of the hammer and trigger mating surfaces, the frame bosses those parts ride on, and the timing (hand-to-ratchet fit). I have no experience with any other Apex stuff, but they seem to have a handle on it so I would not hesitate to try whatever else they may have for "regular" DA/SA revolvers. A lighter rebound spring couldn't hurt… up to a point.

The problem with a lighter rebound spring is, if you hit the threshold of trigger return energy you have now made your revolver into a sometimes-shooter. A certain amount of energy is needed to get that trigger back forward. Make it too light, and the cylinder can "skip" in rapid fire (AKA "throw-by"). Worst case, the trigger won't go back fully forward without a manual push. Bad juju.

Most everybody seems to think (because they read it over and over again in gun magazines and the internet) that DA revolvers are simple beasts; much simpler than semi-autos. Wrong. Revolver parts move back and forth, up and down, and around and around… all at the same time. Disturb that delicate balance (as most table-top "trigger jobs" do), and you've got trouble. Generally, when you change one thing on a DA revolver, you must adjust another thing to maintain that balance. A good example is the Apex Centennial spring kit; in addition to the lighter trigger rebound spring, you also get a new firing pin and firing pin spring. Both of the latter are necessary to ensure reliable ignition with the lightened DA pull (no SA capability on these guns).

It would be unethical of me to describe methods of lightening trigger pulls using existing parts. What I know, I learned from working on hundreds of the things; and that sort of knowledge is NOT taught in armorer classes. I have a pretty good idea of how far to go, I have the tools and gauges to CHECK how far I've gone, and parts if I go too far and have to start over. Plus, the current MIM parts are NOT the "same" (property-wise; they look the same and work the same, though) as the forged/milled parts I know so well, so I'd be talking out of my ass in any event if the topic is a post-90s gun.

Here's the best advice I can give you. We're talking J frames here; they are for shooting people when the shooter is under high duress. They are not target guns; in fact, if you enjoy shooting a lightweight example for an extended session, then you are more man than me. With that in mind, the smart move is to live with the trigger that the revolver came with. It passed the gauging and reliability tests at the plant (usually); and as we all know, reliability is the number one factor in a defensive firearm; it MUST go bang when you need it to.

As others here have noted, you can smooth up the action a bit by extensive dry firing. My M-360PD, purchased in 2002 and having had in excess of 5K rounds through it, is every bit as smooth and crisp as the 1966-vintage M-37 I worked long and hard over. The only fiddling I did with that piece was to remove the lock mechanism improperly; but that has been covered elsewhere on this forum. My point here is, after the first thousand rounds or so the action improved noticeably. Live firing accelerates the process a bit, because the recoil actually helps "marry" the working parts to each other. Dry firing will do this as well… it just takes longer.

If you simply cannot keep yourself from tinkering, I can recommend the Apex kit for a Centennial J frame. I'm talking about the enclosed hammer model. AFAIK, all J frames made after 1996 or so have frame-mounted inertial firing pins. Whether or not the firing pin and spring included in Apex kit for the 442/642/et. al. will fit an exposed-hammer example, I do not know. A call to Apex would answer that question.

Any other "kit" offerings, etc., I would be leery of. S&W did, for many years, offer a lighter trigger rebound spring for K frames. Made expressly for the single-action-only version of the K-38, a dedicated target piece, it was (and is) a limited item, highly sought after by mechanics doing PPC trigger jobs. I know of no such goodies ever made by them for J frames.

Sorry for the novella, but this is a complex situation that has no easy answers.

.

[UNK]

I talked with a gunsmith yesterday. His opinion was that current J Frames are good to go. He said for those with a weaker grip or who are unable to manage the trigger pull he recommends cutting two coils off the trigger return spring. He said if you have good return you can cut another 1/2 coil. He also said it is the same thing S&W will do if you send it back to the performance center His opinion is the same as yours and LSP972 if its not rough and catchy just shoot and dry fire it. This seems like the most reliable way to go if you are going to do anything besides shoot/dry fire.

I haven't done the Apex kits on any of my guns, guys like Claude report that they do improve the trigger and lighten the pull.

No bullshit, I find buying snap caps and dry firing the crap out of the gun to be the best "polish" for the new MIM part J frames I have tried out.

[LSP972]

He also said it is the same thing S&W will do if you send it back to the performance center.

This is my skeptical face.

I wish I could find that "Bullshit Meter" thingie.

Clipping coils on a "serious use" S&W revolver is... just... retarded.

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This is my bowing in respect to your experience face. I am not being argumentative. I enjoy having a conversation and learning. And I am not saying that I will do anything other than what you recommended.
The gunsmith told me the trigger return spring is an 18 pound spring. I have seen that Jody reported that trigger return was too weak with the APEX kit. Also as I understand, the APEX changes the mainspring, the firing pin, the firing pin spring and the trigger return spring.
I'll say this, I just put a Crimson Trace LG405 laser on it and in dry fire it's not hard to control as is. I still need to stop by and get a case of ammo and snap caps. Holster should be here in a couple of weeks so I'm not in a hurry.

This is my skeptical face.

I wish I could find that "Bullshit Meter" thingie.

Clipping coils on a "serious use" S&W revolver is... just... retarded.

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[TMC1926]

I own my own gunsmithing business and have been professionally gunsmithing for 20 years now. I do lots of revolver work. I prefer the MIM parts over the forged parts. I find the consistency and fit , finish, and function to be greater with the MIM parts. I am able to achieve better trigger jobs with these parts. I have even had customers send guns in for unrelated warranty work to S&W that I have done trigger work to. The guns were returned with the same parts still installed. If S&W finds parts worked on that does not meet factory specification they replace the parts. I've also spoke with numerous reps and customer service employees who have stated it is fine to polish the parts if you know what your doing and do proper work. I still love the forged parts but there is a real difference in a Monday morning gun and a Friday afternoon gun when the guns were hand fit which makes consistent work more strenuous. I hope this helps.

[Chuck Haggard]

I know a number of people that have bought the spring kits from Wolfe and played around with the various weights until they had a trigger they like AND reliable ignition and trigger return.

Cutting coils is indeed a bad idea IMHO


I do find that the guns are smoothed up rather nicely nine times out of ten, and either the trigger is lighter or my trigger finger is stronger, if one just does the work and dry fires the gun a lot.

[UNK]

Thanks for your input. Earlier in the thread (page 1) I posted a letter from an individual at S&W who basically said the same thing.

I own my own gunsmithing business and have been professionally gunsmithing for 20 years now. I do lots of revolver work. I prefer the MIM parts over the forged parts. I find the consistency and fit , finish, and function to be greater with the MIM parts. I am able to achieve better trigger jobs with these parts. I have even had customers send guns in for unrelated warranty work to S&W that I have done trigger work to. The guns were returned with the same parts still installed. If S&W finds parts worked on that does not meet factory specification they replace the parts. I've also spoke with numerous reps and customer service employees who have stated it is fine to polish the parts if you know what your doing and do proper work. I still love the forged parts but there is a real difference in a Monday morning gun and a Friday afternoon gun when the guns were hand fit which makes consistent work more strenuous. I hope this helps.