Knife assault

[LittleLebowski]

Damn, that is a rough video. Any background info on it yet?

[Beat Trash]

Rarely do I not have one......and usually a couple others.

Care to share your preferred neck knife brand/model?

[Byron]

Some notes on the video:

The first we see of the fight is around 2:08, when both parties come in through the office door. They are already entangled and traction is horrible.

For almost a minute, there's a mad scramble as the victim tries desperately to control the weapon of his attacker (great starting point, but he never progresses beyond it). During this entire time, both parties are in physical contact. Both parties are trying to control each other's arms, posture, and position.

Around 3:00 the attacker is able to break his weapon-arm completely free for the first time, at which point he immediately sinks a serious blow with the blade. He then uses the blade as a lever to ragdoll the guy and start working him like a sewing machine.

I'm not trying to quiz anyone or put them on the spot, but as you watch this video, ask yourself exactly when the victim could have accessed a gun or knife (had he been carrying one).

Again, the reason that the victim made it ~50 seconds before suffering the first serious wound is because he was using both arms to control/defend. It wasn't until the attacker's arm was free (for just a moment) that the knife really started finding its way deep into flesh.

Given all of this, when in the video should the victim have pulled his own weapon? Since the attacker only needed his arm free for a fraction of a second to start stabbing his opponent deeply and ragdolling him around, what would have happened if the victim had let go of an arm earlier, in an effort to draw his own weapon?

We don't have footage of how this all started. Maybe the victim had a chance to draw a weapon before this became an entangled fight. Maybe the victim was attacked without warning and we're just seeing the fight move into the office.

I can't comment on what I can't see, but in the footage itself, I just don't see any moment of opportunity to produce a weapon. A successful draw would have required the victim to achieve better control of his opponent first... which is also the best formula for defending against the knife.

Don't get me wrong: the victim is better off wielding a gun or a knife, but he needs to be able to produce it without giving up control of his attacker. Otherwise it's like taking a punch to land a punch... except you're taking a knife to the back and neck.

[breakingtime91]

There is a point after the initial stabbing that the victim is strikin back and trying to grab an object to fight with. That was where I thought a pocket knife/belt/neck knife would of been pretty handy. While not ideal and he was seriously wounded it would of given him a little more of a chance

[MGW]

So what is an appropriate COA here? Whizzer the knife arm and start with eye gouges? I can't tell if there is an escape route except through the door.

[JHC]

Some notes on the video:

The first we see of the fight is around 2:08, when both parties come in through the office door. They are already entangled and traction is horrible.

For almost a minute, there's a mad scramble as the victim tries desperately to control the weapon of his attacker (great starting point, but he never progresses beyond it). During this entire time, both parties are in physical contact. Both parties are trying to control each other's arms, posture, and position.

Around 3:00 the attacker is able to break his weapon-arm completely free for the first time, at which point he immediately sinks a serious blow with the blade. He then uses the blade as a lever to ragdoll the guy and start working him like a sewing machine.

I'm not trying to quiz anyone or put them on the spot, but as you watch this video, ask yourself exactly when the victim could have accessed a gun or knife (had he been carrying one).

Again, the reason that the victim made it ~50 seconds before suffering the first serious wound is because he was using both arms to control/defend. It wasn't until the attacker's arm was free (for just a moment) that the knife really started finding its way deep into flesh.

Given all of this, when in the video should the victim have pulled his own weapon? Since the attacker only needed his arm free for a fraction of a second to start stabbing his opponent deeply and ragdolling him around, what would have happened if the victim had let go of an arm earlier, in an effort to draw his own weapon?

We don't have footage of how this all started. Maybe the victim had a chance to draw a weapon before this became an entangled fight. Maybe the victim was attacked without warning and we're just seeing the fight move into the office.

I can't comment on what I can't see, but in the footage itself, I just don't see any moment of opportunity to produce a weapon. A successful draw would have required the victim to achieve better control of his opponent first... which is also the best formula for defending against the knife.

Don't get me wrong: the victim is better off wielding a gun or a knife, but he needs to be able to produce it without giving up control of his attacker. Otherwise it's like taking a punch to land a punch... except you're taking a knife to the back and neck.

Great analysis. For Byron and others with considerable empty hand EQC fighting knowledge - does it appear that the victim's efforts all appear to be reactive defensive vs proactive. As in he's trying to control the weapon instinctively but everything else appears "in a spirit of" reacting and waiting for the next thing to react to vs aggressively trying to gain initiative.

Not sure, that's why I'm asking.


The victim might consider he is struggling with a more experienced fighter (not unusual for victims). He might know that sooner or later he's going to loose this flailing game and take his chances with absorbing a knife wound to draw and get to blasting. Shielding the best he can with the offside arm get to shooting.

I agree with your analysis mind you. But this could not have turned out any worse for the victim. A very highly trained empty hand fighting victim is not guaranteed to come out of this uninjured by any means either.

[Byron]

Great analysis. For Byron and others with considerable empty hand EQC fighting knowledge - does it appear that the victim's efforts all appear to be reactive defensive vs proactive. As in he's trying to control the weapon instinctively but everything else appears "in a spirit of" reacting and waiting for the next thing to react to vs aggressively trying to gain initiative.

Thanks, man. Just so it's clear I'm not trying to pass myself off as something that I'm not, I don't believe that I have considerable empty hand knowledge. I've trained with some amazing guys (some of them known names, some not), but am an imbecile compared to those who truly have considerable knowledge.

I've taken a number of courses that deal with this sort of thing (just 2 examples include Craig's Edged Weapons Overview and Edge Weapons Defense at the MATC), so my perspective is shaped heavily by those experiences. In those courses, however, we started at low pressure and gradually ramped up to high energy and resistance. In that regard, it's satisfying to realize that you really can secure a good 2-on-1 grip and arm drag a larger dude, assuming you execute solid fundamentals. I also saw that I could get away with a lot of sloppiness when pressure was low (including drawing my own weapon when I should have been checking hands), but that drastically changed once the pressure increased. I've seen a lot of knife material sold over the years in which students do not get this kind of pressure, and therefore believe that their technique which works at 25% speed will also work at 100% speed.

I would highly recommend checking out this article and this video, both from Paul Sharp:
http://sharpdefense.me/2013/09/08/its-just-a-knife/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEvgp5TE3ak
(Also notice the cross-over with what you see in the MATC material above)

As far as the victim's efforts, they don't look very intentional (though again, I'm not an expert): more reactive, like you note. Despite the fact that he successfully gains solid wrist control a few times, he never progresses beyond that. He also controls posture a few times, but again, it looks more like panicked grabs at whatever he can hold, rather than deliberate attempts to advance the position or execute a technique.

The victim might consider he is struggling with a more experienced fighter (not unusual for victims). He might know that sooner or later he's going to loose this flailing game and take his chances with absorbing a knife wound to draw and get to blasting. Shielding the best he can with the offside arm get to shooting.

I agree with your analysis mind you. But this could not have turned out any worse for the victim. A very highly trained empty hand fighting victim is not guaranteed to come out of this uninjured by any means either.

Someone may indeed choose to eat shots if they feel it's their only way to get to their weapon, and they believe that weapon is their only way to win. But I also think there's some middle ground to be had between unarmed domination and sacrificing your body. A solid underhook or overhook might not be enough to stop the attacker outright, but it may provide just enough opportunity to draw your own weapon without completely exposing yourself to that huge wind-up.

But yes: there are absolutely no guarantees. The best fighter in the world could get shivved multiple times before he even realizes there's a weapon in play.

[SouthNarc]

There is a point after the initial stabbing that the victim is strikin back and trying to grab an object to fight with.

Difficult to do without exchanging whether the adversary is armed or unarmed.

Watch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7MG6zfj6Hw

[Dropkick]

The victim/defender bringing another weapon into play turns a knife grappling problem into a knife + additional weapon grappling problem.
Talk about jumping out of the pot and into the fire...

[Peally]

So what is an appropriate COA here? Whizzer the knife arm and start with eye gouges? I can't tell if there is an escape route except through the door.

I think this is one of those situations where everything has gone so ass-ended at this point that you're basically screwed no matter what you do. Knife fights suck and I hope I'm never involved in anything close to one.