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Thread: If you were going to run 10k carrying rifle, pistol, ammo, how would you do it?

  1. #331
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Oklahoma
    2017 Oklahoma Run n Gun Biathlon
    Pawnee, OK
    28 Jan 2017

    Here's a few observations from the weekend:

    Conditions
    Morning temperatures were in the 30's, afternoon temps reached 50. Wind picked up to around 20 mph by late morning. Good running weather.

    Run
    One loop was 7.4 miles making the '20k' nearly 15 miles. Course was set up nice with a mixture of woods, hills, pasture and gravel road. 20k Participants were allowed 12 minutes between loops to reload ammo, water, etc. My training consisted of long (14-18 miles) runs with a plate carrier therefore The run portion was relatively easy. The goal was to start slow and finish strong with no walking except at creek crossings-- Goal achieved. I ran the 2nd loop 4 min faster than the first.

    Shooting
    7 stages per loop consisting of pistol and rifle targets from unorthodox positions at ranges of 10 - 500 yards with frequent movement required between targets. RO's preached muzzle awareness at all times. I trained on 8" steel so the 12"x18" rifle targets appeared big to me. Hits weren't that difficult to achieve so time became the governing factor making transitions critical. I was pleased with my shooting and experienced no magazine bobbles or malfunctions.

    Equipment
    Rifle - custom built AR15 from BP Outfitters in Tulsa, OK. It has extremely low recoil making follow up shots very quick.

    Pistol - stock VP9. Not much to say, Both rifle and pistol performed flawlessly

    Sling - SKD PIG SMS 3 point sling (designed by none other than Mr. SLG). Sling made a huge difference in stability at unsupported positions. SLG used the same design last year when he won it. Little Jerry also used this sling. Interesting to note, my QD nearest the muzzle got dirt in it and pulled out while I was running with rifle slung on my back. If it hadn't of been for the additinal attachment point on the hand guard, I'd dumped the rifle.

    Pack - HPG kit bag and tarahumara pack. Awesome. Made access to mags fast and easy to do on the run. Used a maxpedtion sneaky holster sleeve inside bag for the pistol. I carried pistol mags in two safaraland mag holsters.

    Rank - each 10k loop was scored as a separate 10k score then combined to determine 20k placing. My first round earned me 4th in the 10k and my second run earned me 2nd in the 10k. I was 1st overall in the 20k. There was 78 entrants in the 10k and 32 in the 20k.

    Praise the Lord, it was a Very blessed weekend.

  2. #332
    FOG,

    I'm thrilled that you did as well as you did, and that the sling was a benefit. A 20K is no joke to run and shoot well. How was the pistol portion this year?

    As far as push button qd swivels, they are definitely not all made equal. Do you know which you used? I've had good luck with Troy, as well as some others.

    The way the push button swivels are, those little ball bearings don't have a lot of room for stuff to get in there before they won't work well. In addition, the human error on those things is pretty high.
    Even with good ones, I have always been a bit leary of them, and prefer to mount the sling a little differently when I can. The rear gets direct threaded to the stock. The front will often get a BFG wire loop attachment. Sometimes the front gets a clip, whose name escapes me at the moment. The middle usually gets a qd.

    Congratulations again!

  3. #333
    January 2017 AAR and look back

    I just completed the 2017 Winter Run'N'Gun 20k challenge. Overall the physical challenge was greater than I expected. Final distance ended up being 14.9 miles according to my GPS. Before I get into details I want to take a look back at how I got into this and the early feedback I received.

    Where I started:
    When I started this thread in March of 2015 I had no idea what I was getting into. To put it plainly, I didn't know what I didn't know. My original motivation for doing the Run'n'Gun was age related – 30 years was on the horizon(go ahead and laugh) and I wanted to do something to combat this nagging voice in the back of my head which was saying I had pissed away any opportunity of being fit in my 20's. My goal was to avoid having regrets 10 years from now over what I might have been able to do in my 30's.

    I naively thought:
    - I was a "decent" runner
    - I was in moderate shape
    - The Garand was a suitable biathlon rifle
    - I knew how to train
    - All I needed was the "right gear"
    I just re-read this entire thread and wanted to reflect on some things I had lost sight of:

    Shortly after starting the OP I was surprised by the level of feedback. Lots and lots of free wisdom came my way. Re-reading it now I realize that there are nuggets of truth and wisdom laced throughout the thread and I ignored most of it to my own detriment. Regarding gear, the HPG Tara/Kit bag was one of the first things people mentioned and it's what I'm switching to for next summer. FOG already proved it's viability this race by using it and winning the 20k.

    I'm also surprised by the number of things which I now consider to be fundamentals of training but forgot originally came from PF:
    - Use sand for weight
    - Use extreme caution when running with weight
    - Incorporate rucking into weekly routine
    - Reference SF ruck standards

    SLG provided a huge amount valuable guidance. As I'm re-reading this thread I keep seeing things that he mentioned which I stupidly decided to learn the hard way. He also raised a red flag when I detailed my completely misguided perception of fitness and pacing before the first race. Again, PF wisdom was right and I nearly stroked out at the race. My early failure is captured in all it's glory on post #93.

    All of this is a long-winded way of saying: holy shit guys, you were right. Thank you for all of your suggestions and tips. SLG especially – thank you for attempting to point me in the right direction.


    Where I'm at Today:
    The 20k race was hard, go figure. 15 miles of running wears on you, especially when carrying gear.

    20k Training:
    My prep for the race was a combination of bodyweight workouts (squats, pushups, pullups, planks, lunges), long slow runs(6-12 miles), sprints, and rucking (45lb pack, 3-15 miles). Some weeks were good with 5 workouts, other weeks were bad with only 2.

    My biggest regret is not having spent more time doing the long slow runs. I had only worked up to 12 miles before the race, and only used weight while rucking or on very short runs(>3 miles). I don't think that running with weight is entirely necessary, but it is necessary to actually do the mileage and keep your HR up for hours at a time. I had some good long rucks in there, but my running didn't quite creep up to the 15 mile distance.

    20k Shooting:

    There were 7 stages for each 7.5 mile run. We were given 12 minutes after the first run to resupply water, mags, ammo, etc.My shooting hasn't changed much since I started running these events. I've done a bit more medium-range rifle stuff(600 yards), but I've definitely been shooting USPSA less and my pistol speed/accuracy has fallen behind a bit. I don't have my actual round counts from the runs (lost track of mags between runs) but I'm estimating low 50's for rifle and ~25 pistol for each run. There were 16 runners with 2 scores for each run, so last place was 32.

    The stages:
    10K ONLY Bonus I – Zombie Killer: Shooter must advance through the woods through several different firing points and get two hits each with rifle*on five 8" steel targets,*at varying distances from 25-75 yards.*(10 rifle)

    This stage was straightforward. I got screwed on my first run. After I finished the RO proclaimed "That was a fast run.... aww shit! The timer died!" He asked if I wanted a re-shoot or for him to guess what my time was. I opted not to re-shoot because it was the first stage and I didn't know how the rest of the race would go ammo-wise.

    Run 1: 0.92 minutes, 20k Rank: 20 ; 10k Rank: 50
    Run 2: 0.58 minutes, 20k Rank: 3 ; 10 Rank: 8

    Stage 1 – Advance With a Pistol: Shooter must advance through the woods to 3 different firing points, getting two hits on a 12" pistol target distances from 5-15 yards at each, then advance to the final position and flip 6 targets on a dueling tree from approximately 10 yards. (12 pistol)

    Another straightforward stage. I resisted the urge to try and burn it down because I was focused on endurance and consistency for the event.

    Run 1: 0.40 minutes, 20k Rank: 5 ; 10k Rank: 6
    Run 2: 0.47 minutes, 20k Rank: 9 ; 10k Rank: 12

    Stage 2 – Fast and Hard: Shooter will engage a plate rack with six 6" plates*from approximately 30 yards from behind a barricade, knocking down each*plate*through a different*hole in the barricade. *(6 rifle)
    My first run on this stage was a little challenging; the plate rack was not designed for rifle rounds(especially not 308!) at 30 yards. The plates were tilted forward ~45 degrees greatly reducing the size of the target. I dropped a few rounds here...

    Run 1: 0.75 minutes, 20k Rank: 7 ; 10k Rank: 11
    Run 2: 0.58 minutes, 20k Rank: 5 ; 10k Rank: 9

    Stage 3 – Rifleman’s Quarter Mile: Shooter must get two hits each on targets at 200 yds*and 500 yds. Size of targets is approximately 18"x30". (4rifle)

    200 yards was a breeze. I was surprised to not hit the 500 yard plate on the first shot as I had just zeroed my rifle the weekend before at 600 yards. I had to aim low and left off the target to get hits. I got lucky and saw a splash off the top of the berm and quickly figured out where to aim. On my second run there was still a little guess work but I didn't waste much time. Maybe it's time for a more robust scope?

    Run 1: 1.00 minutes, 20k Rank: 20 ; 10k Rank: 36
    Run 2: 0.65 minutes, 20k Rank: 8 ; 10k Rank: 16

    Stage 4 – War of the Rats Re-Visited:**Shooter must get two hits on a 12"x20"*target at 150-200 yds from rooftop, move inside and get two hits on the same target through louvers that will require a standing/kneeling position, drop down and get two more from the lowest point on the structure that will require a prone position. (6 rifle)

    This stage was awesome! Climb onto a roof, hit a target, jump off, hit a target through louvers, reposition to a prone porthole and hit it again. Anyone young with good knees had an advantage here. I took the approach of jumping off the roof while others would climb back down the way they got up.

    Run 1: 0.60 minutes, 20k Rank: 5 ; 10k Rank: 6
    Run 2: 0.63 minutes, 20k Rank: 7 ; 10k Rank: 8

    Stage 5 – Get Home Safe: Shooter must start this stage with his rifle placed on the ground at a designated firing position. On the "fire" command,*shooter must draw his pistol and*hit*two 12"*pistol targets twice each from approximately 10 yards,*holster*pistol, move to his rifle,*and engage a 12"x20" target twice with rifle at approximately 150 yds.* (4 pistol, 2 rifle)

    ***** At the end of this stage, shooter may take 400 yard bonus shot – 30 seconds to engage an approximately 18"x30"*steel target approximately 400 yds away. 30 seconds, only one round may be fired. *A hit or miss will NOT affect your score. *However,*those who make a hit*will get acknowledged with*a bonus at the end of the day. *****

    On my first run I stupidly forgot to top off the pistol before arriving. I ran dry and had to run a painfully slow emergency reload from a closed top pouch... you coulda made popcorn while I fumbled through it. I did manage to hit the 400 yard target on both runs. There was a stiff ~15 mph wind directly crossing the line of sight. A lot of people missed this.

    Run 1: 0.45 minutes, 20k Rank: 12 ; 10k Rank: 27
    Run 2: 0.43 minutes, 20k Rank: 11 ; 10k Rank: 21

    10K ONLY Bonus II*– Ammo Can Bonus Drill: Shooter must move two ammo cans to first line, engage two 12" pistol targets with*two hits each, holster*pistol, carry ammo cans to rifle line, and*engage a 12"x20"*target at approximately 150 yards from behind available*cover with*two*hits. (4 pistol, 2 rifle)

    I don't know what happened to me on the first run. I missed probably 5 rounds before I finally hit the damn target. On the second run I was too exhausted to care and reverted back to fundamentals... and rocked it. Being the last stage after 14 miles of running I don't know why.

    Run 1: 1.00 minutes, 20k Rank: 14 ; 10k Rank: 29
    Run 2: 0.77 minutes, 20k Rank: 2 ; 10k Rank: 8


    Overall shoot score:
    Run 1:
    20K - 10th place ..... 10k - 17th place
    20K - 2nd place ..... 10k - 4th place

    I'd say my shooting was mixed. First run sucked, second run was solid. I could have and should have done better. A better first run shoot score would have bumped me up to 4th or 5th place overall in the 20k.

    20k running:
    15 miles is long. The longest training run I've ever done is only 12.5 miles. The weather was merciful at this race- when I left in the AM it was ~35 degrees F and in the afternoon it was mid 40's. This was huge for me being able to finish.

    I followed FOG's advice and took a slow pace early on that I thought I could maintain. Turns out the pace was right because my 2nd run was only 4.5 minutes slower than the first.

    I ran solid the first 9 miles. At mile 9 I started getting muscle cramps... the first cramp was in my calf. By mile 11 I was getting major cramps in my upper legs. The cramps got significantly worse when I stopped to walk, so I attmpted to keep running instead. At this point though my heart rate was jacked. Anytime I was running my HR was hovering around 180-185 and would drop down to 160 when I was walking. The last 4 miles were really challenging trying to deal with my out of control HR and leg cramps. I took my remaining salt tabs and pressed on.

    My HR was higher than I expected for the event. I spent most of the time with it over 166(2.5 hours). This is higher than normal for me. Perhaps I just wasn't at 100% this weekend?

    My final ranking was 6th place in the 20k. My 10k combined scores earned 14th and 21st against the 10k runners.

    Closing Thoughts
    I owe a severely belated thank you to everyone who tried to guide me in the right direction. If any of you(SLG?) make it out to a future race I hope I can buy you a beer, assuming you drink the stuff.

    This race has been an incredible motivator in my life. I've lost a good 30lbs of body fat since starting training in 2015. It sounds cheesy but I was desperately in need of a goal to keep me focused. I'm incredibly grateful that the crew in OK have managed to put on this event year after year. I hope they can continue to host; I'll continue to drive out from GA for as long as they do.

    I've come a long way but I've still only scratched the surface. Guys like FOG and SLG are good at setting the bar high. I got stomped in the running portion of the race. I don't know how I'm going to get there, or if it's even possible, but I'm going to try and get there in the next few years.

    My next goal is to run the 20k in the Summer and finish strong. I have no idea what that means... depending on who shows up, maybe it's top 3. If the summer race were today I think I'm on the hairy edge of being able to just finish. We'll see what kind of hurdles I can cross in 5 months.

  4. #334
    LJ,

    Total props to you for not only starting this back then, but continuing to do it and improving every time! This type of competition says a lot about you compared to any of the normal shooting competitions, and it takes a highly motivated person to do it. As far as learning things the hard way...all of us have done that. As long as you live through it, it's the best teacher there is. I was lucky to be taught many of these things before I had to do them, but I didn't really know them until I had done it. You now know them, and are unlikely to forget. Lame as it sounds, some of my fondest memories are of long mileage days, humping rucks and rifles.

    I really hope to make it back to another event in OK, but my current deployment schedule just sucks. I'm typing this in a hotel room now...wishing I was at the race last weekend.

    Congrats on sticking with it. Win lose or draw, you have nothing to be ashamed of, and now you know you can do it and get better at it. No regrets there.

  5. #335
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Oklahoma
    LJ, nice write-up! I'm not that knowledgeable compared to real distance runners but I'd be willing to help you prepare for the summer since I'll be training for it too. Kind of a 2-way accountability type of deal.

    Sent from my SM-G900R4 using Tapatalk
    Last edited by FOG; 02-01-2017 at 11:00 PM.

  6. #336
    New Member Shootingrn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Thanks for the write up guys and it s really great to read about this type of stuff and how it positively impacts people. I'd really like to try try a race soon. I know where I'll go to get ready thanks to everyone's input.

  7. #337
    SLG- thanks for the kind words. And right there with you on fond memories of long days with a rifle in the woods.

    Hope you can make it out and wipe the floor with us. How you feel about a 20k?


    FOG- that would be awesome. I'd love to pick your brain on how you are prepping and what your routine is. This week I've been sleeping a ton. My body was way more tired than I initially thought. Next week I plan to ease back into things.

  8. #338
    Site Supporter LOKNLOD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Oklahoma
    Good write-ups guys. Ya'll are making me regret missing. The upside is I was well enough for my trip this week, which was important. The bad news is my wife and youngest are at home with the flu (wife) and pneumonia (Daughter) and I'm stuck her in Ohio. :/ almost would have been better had I been too sick to leave.

    FOG, et al, I would be interested too in seeing what the training program looks like. I need to get off my butt and do the work.
    --Josh
    “Formerly we suffered from crimes; now we suffer from laws.” - Tacitus.

  9. #339
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    West Texas

    If you were going to run 10k carrying rifle, pistol, ammo, how would you do it?

    Perhaps I'm super late to the party, but other than Pecos Run n Gun I am clueless on any others. I tried to skim through the thread, but maybe I missed it.......is there a resource out there that lists these type of competitions for the year?

    Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks.
    Last edited by bravo7; 02-02-2017 at 09:36 PM.

  10. #340
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Oklahoma
    LNL, think about it and decide if you're doing the 5k or 10k or even 20k (yes, you could potentially do that if you had enough time in the week to train ) and I'll share some training options with you. I'm helping 2 other buddies prepare for the 10k.

    LJ, take a week or two off to recover mentally and physically and I'll pm or text you some info.

    SLG, I have a troy QD on my Colt but I bought a cheap one this go round, definately not the same. I checked out the BFG wire loop and that looks much better. I don't remove slings often anyway so a QD isn't necessary. It would be awesome if you could make it in July, just tell the bad guys to cool it for the weekend of July 22 [emoji6]

    Sent from my SM-G900R4 using Tapatalk

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