USAF Academy M9 Training

[seabiscuit]

Mods, if this is the wrong place for this, please move it.

Obviously not everyone can take this class, and I wouldn't recommend it anyway. We had 20 minutes of classroom safety and manual of arms, then headed to the range for 30 rounds.

While the instructor told us "all guns are always loaded," and "never point tour muzzle at anything you're not willing to destroy," his M9 was pointed at me.

We shot from 7, 15, and 25 yards. Most courses of fire were two to the chest, one to the head. The last was six to the chest, resting on the barricade and kneeling at 25 yards.

I didn't shoot as well as I would have liked - I'm not used to the DA trigger. I've heard flying squadron commanders will often let their pilots carry their own sidearm, and I'll probably get a G19 for that purpose. If I can't, I'll buy a 92 so I can train with it, since Glock training obviously doesn't cross over.

Resources and time are limited. 50 shooters, one instructor, and two hours make it hard to teach anything worthwhile. But at least it introduces cadets to firearms.

[Al T.]

Sight alignment, reloads (use the slide release on the 92), stance and trigger control carry over.

[seabiscuit]

Sight alignment, reloads (use the slide release on the 92), stance and trigger control carry over.

True,and that stuff did help. But holsters/mag carriers are different, and that DA trigger really threw me for a loop. At this point, it's not a platform I feel confident enough with to take into combat.

[Mike Honcho]

Mods, if this is the wrong place for this, please move it.

Obviously not everyone can take this class, and I wouldn't recommend it anyway. We had 20 minutes of classroom safety and manual of arms, then headed to the range for 30 rounds.

While the instructor told us "all guns are always loaded," and "never point tour muzzle at anything you're not willing to destroy," his M9 was pointed at me.

We shot from 7, 15, and 25 yards. Most courses of fire were two to the chest, one to the head. The last was six to the chest, resting on the barricade and kneeling at 25 yards.

I didn't shoot as well as I would have liked - I'm not used to the DA trigger. I've heard flying squadron commanders will often let their pilots carry their own sidearm, and I'll probably get a G19 for that purpose. If I can't, I'll buy a 92 so I can train with it, since Glock training obviously doesn't cross over.

Resources and time are limited. 50 shooters, one instructor, and two hours make it hard to teach anything worthwhile. But at least it introduces cadets to firearms.

I’ve been shooting this exact same course, with the addition of some others, for the past 8 years. My experience usually jives with yours as far as the M9 AF Qual Course.
Firearms instructors in the AF (Combat Arms Training and Maintenance, or CATM) are Security Forces troops, it's a lateral retrain as CATM is a shred-out of the SF AFSC along with K9 handler. While K9 guys generally crosstrain into it because they want to be dog handlers, the vast majority of CATM guys (IME) do it because they don’t like being cops and want to get off flight. The random one might “like guns”, but there is no screening process as far as knowledge and aptitude either in weapons or instruction ability. As long as you’re breathing, they’ll take you and the idea is that you’ll learn what you need at the course. What you were subjected to is 90% of the result.

The weapon safety bit is unacceptable, but it is very common where they come from (regular SF flight) to not worry about things like muzzle discipline. Weapons safety is paid lip service every day in guardmount in the form of canned briefings, that include things like “don’t joke or gesture with your weapon” and “don’t take your weapon apart or count your rounds on post”. Products of their environment.

Carrying a non-issue, personal weapon is a no-go. Not only unauthorized by AF Instruction, but a Law of Armed Conflict violation.

The half-assed nature of the training (it’s the same in most units) is the fact that the AF hates guns, and wouldn’t have them at all if they could get away with it. Since they kind of have to have them, they relegate them to the absolute lowest priority possible. PT tests have a higher priority than weapons proficiency in the USAF. The vast majority of the AF is a check-the-box exercise, especially in this area. There are some units that do things differently, but they are few and far between, and have a mission-driven reason for doing things the way they do.

[seabiscuit]

Carrying a non-issue, personal weapon is a no-go. Not only unauthorized by AF Instruction, but a Law of Armed Conflict violation.

Can you show me the AFI and LOAC which say this is unauthorized? I've heard stories of pilots carrying personal weapons with commander permission.

[Mike Honcho]

Can you show me the AFI and LOAC which say this is unauthorized? I've heard stories of pilots carrying personal weapons with commander permission.

I've heard stories to that effect too; Vietnam and earlier, though. Our former Chief of Staff, Gen Moseley, testified in Congress that he carried a .357 while flying combat missions. Ol' Buzz was a fucking idiot though, and it wouldn't surprise me that he'd done it and not realized it was a no-go (or didn't care, he was a member of the Fighter Mafia), or was too stupid to know what he was carrying (he tended to talk out his ass a lot), or was trying to impress people with how much of a badass he was (combine the previous two statements in parentheses).

Firearms training and qualifications are documented on an AF Form 522. This records the model of weapon used, course of fire, ammunition expended, score, and relevant dates. You're not even supposed to utilize a different holster than the issue one (M12 green flap holster) unless it's documented on the 522 in the remarks section. We just fought that here with a bunch of pilots and other O's who thought they were too cool for school and should use whatever cool guy holster they wanted (SERPAs and shit). While I'm not above dudes using good gear other than issue (probably half my shit is personally bought), for them to carry (empty) pistols at all was purely a status symbol, and no training (familiarization or otherwise) was conducted with the new holsters. I wanted to make them use lanyards, as weapons accountability seems to be an issue with them, and the best I could come up with was to dummy cord it to them.

So just saying the 522 means you were qualified on a pistol, and therefore can now use any handgun just because the commander approves it, is not going to happen. The liability is too great, what with bubba guns, and I don't even want to start on ammunition concerns. In the AF, if something happens (such as an accident or a use of force) the first thing investigators will do is pull up whatever training records are applicable and ensure the individual was appropriately trained on the task and equipment. This alone ensures that no commander would ever put his ass on the line because somebody doesn’t like something about the issue pistol. Not to mention that POW (personally owned weapons) aren't allowed on installation, with the exception of being transported to the SF armory for storage (and some other location-specific stuff, like POW ranges).

If this was OK, I guarantee you wouldn't see everybody carrying M9s, dudes would be rocking whatever cheap 1911 or XD-45 they could get their CC to hack off on, because 9mm wouldn't kill a dog and .45 makes them disappear in a shower of sparks.

While LE agencies are subject to locally-derived policy about what they can and can’t carry, the military is subject to not only the UCMJ, but also international laws of war, status of forces agreements, etc.

AFI 31-207 covers arming and use of force. The LOAC (or maybe something else like Geneva, but it's the same deal that prohibits hollow-point ammunition and modifying ammo), I’ll see if I can dig it up.

Disclaimer: I'm not CATM, just spent plenty of time at a unit where small unit leaders were the primary trainers for everything.

[Abraxas]

True,and that stuff did help. But holsters/mag carriers are different, and that DA trigger really threw me for a loop. At this point, it's not a platform I feel confident enough with to take into combat.

If you are using your M9 for combat things have went severely wrong. As you know the solution is just to go shoot it.

[seabiscuit]

If you are using your M9 for combat things have went severely wrong. As you know the solution is just to go shoot it.

Yeah, which means I gotta buy one. Helos do go down; helo pilots are carrying M4's too.

[Abraxas]

Yeah, which means I gotta buy one. Helos do go down; helo pilots are carrying M4's too.

This I know first hand, just being a smartass.

[Al T.]

DA trigger really threw me for a loop

Some dry firing would help take care of that issue. When I shot IDPA, every once in a while we would get some guys from FT. Jackson or USMCR units who would shoot 92s. Took some effort, but going from that heavy first trigger poll to the lighter is "doable". COL. Cooper suggested that either cocking the hammer first (like drawing a 1911 with the hammer down and a round chambered) or simply throwing the first round downrange to get to the single action mode could work. While the latter suggestion is sort of silly in a civilian setting, if it's a two way rifle match, no big deal.

Not sure about pilots in flight and the AF in general, but work on drawing and charging your M9 - lots of .mil installations want you to have the chamber clear and at best a loaded magazine in the weapon.

As for the holsters, I spent some time overseas and I had three different carry points for my M9. Depended on what I was doing and how I was dressed.