The 40cal on its way out?

[BehindBlueI's]

I keep hearing the trend in LE is going to the 9mm. I haven't seen that at all in my neck of the woods. Almost everyone is carrying a .40, and the ones who aren't are carrying a .45. The Gen 2s lasted long enough that the night sights were about dead before we went to 3s to get the rail since weapon lights was the hot new thing. 9mm may last longer, but honestly how many are wearing out the .40 for that to matter?

I'm not smart enough in the realm of ballistics to say what's the best and what's not, but I figure each has an advantage and a disadvantage in any given situation. All I can say is our guys test stuff all the time, and the 165 gr HST .40 has been what we've stuck with for many years now. It's performed very well in police action shootings, has penetrated car doors and glass effectively, and we've had no complaints with it. There is zero push to go to 9mm on my department.

[BWT]

I keep hearing the trend in LE is going to the 9mm. I haven't seen that at all in my neck of the woods. Almost everyone is carrying a .40, and the ones who aren't are carrying a .45. The Gen 2s lasted long enough that the night sights were about dead before we went to 3s to get the rail since weapon lights was the hot new thing. 9mm may last longer, but honestly how many are wearing out the .40 for that to matter?

I'm not smart enough in the realm of ballistics to say what's the best and what's not, but I figure each has an advantage and a disadvantage in any given situation. All I can say is our guys test stuff all the time, and the 165 gr HST .40 has been what we've stuck with for many years now. It's performed very well in police action shootings, has penetrated car doors and glass effectively, and we've had no complaints with it. There is zero push to go to 9mm on my department.

I think the Glock 22 Gen 3 issues for a number of departments, and the FBI going to 9mm (IIRC). Is what the trend is. If Glock's statistic of 65% of LE using them can be trusted; I'd bet half or at least near that were using .40 S&W Glocks. That could lead to large changes.

Just my .02$

[ST911]

There is zero push to go to 9mm on my department.

It's coming. When, not if.

[Sportster883]

Too many people are focusing on the LEO community. Which is a very small minority group of pistol users. it might be the cool or trendy thing to talk about on the web, but the numbers are just too small to make any significant difference in total number of pistols and their caliber. Where I am the largest consumer for the 40 is the police, a very small minority group for pistol users. If all you do is shoot with police buddies and that's all they shoot because that's what they use or can get the ammo cheap does not accurately translate to actual real world statistics. It's the same thing as police cruisers. They all drive a select few models of cars and SUVs. Just because 65% of them is a crown Vic does not mean 65% of non sworn civilians also drive a crown Vic.

[BWT]

Too many people are focusing on the LEO community. Which is a very small minority group of pistol users. it might be the cool or trendy thing to talk about on the web, but the numbers are just too small to make any significant difference in total number of pistols and their caliber. Where I am the largest consumer for the 40 is the police, a very small minority group for pistol users. If all you do is shoot with police buddies and that's all they shoot because that's what they use or can get the ammo cheap does not accurately translate to actual real world statistics. It's the same thing as police cruisers. They all drive a select few models of cars and SUVs. Just because 65% of them is a crown Vic does not mean 65% of non sworn civilians also drive a crown Vic.

While there is some truth in your logic; I honestly don't have any statistics to validate or invalidate your stance. Who do the ammunition manufacturers cater to?

I dunno about you but just about every major JHP I use or high quality ammo is designed for either the military or police. Some examples being HST and Mk 262.

How many 10mm defensive loadings or JHP loads do you see out there?

[Sportster883]

While there is some truth in your logic; I honestly don't have any statistics to validate or invalidate your stance. Who do the ammunition manufacturers cater to?

I dunno about you but just about every major JHP I use or high quality ammo is designed for either the military or police. Some examples being HST and Mk 262.

How many 10mm defensive loadings or JHP loads do you see out there?

We could say 100% of all police use the 40. The numbers in the margin of error for non sworn civilian gun owners alone is greater than the number of actual police. So let's double the number of police, still don't stand a chance compared to regular people gun owner numbers. You could triple that doubled number and it's still well below 10% of the low number of non sworn gun owners. The use of police numbers is not a fair shake for the caliber. It also gives a good indication it is not so popular if such a small minority group of shooters is used to indicate a calibers popularity.

Ammo is catered to money. Put HST in a box with flowers on it and label it civilian ammo. They won't sell much, even if it's cheaper than the same thing in the box with spiffy names on it like swat and LEO only.

10mm, can't help you out there, I don't shoot it. Don't ask me about 40 either, haven't looked for a box of 40 ammo in two decades. I do know it sells pretty slow at every gun store I go to though.

HST, my choice too, but not because of some gello test or someone got paid to write an article about it. We get crop damage block permits for deer. I use what works best on them, and I have tried just about everything out there. HST does the best. Mk262, another good choice. My only use of that ammo was before I retired from being an 11B when I was a SDM for a while. It made the AR platform a solid 600M rig on a point target in the right hands. Haven't used it since because I don't shoot at woodchucks past 300 anyway, I like stalking closer these days. If I may say so good sir, you have a fine choice in ammo....

[BWT]

We could say 100% of all police use the 40. The numbers in the margin of error for non sworn civilian gun owners alone is greater than the number of actual police. So let's double the number of police, still don't stand a chance compared to regular people gun owner numbers. You could triple that doubled number and it's still well below 10% of the low number of non sworn gun owners. The use of police numbers is not a fair shake for the caliber. It also gives a good indication it is not so popular if such a small minority group of shooters is used to indicate a calibers popularity.

Ammo is catered to money. Put HST in a box with flowers on it and label it civilian ammo. They won't sell much, even if it's cheaper than the same thing in the box with spiffy names on it like swat and LEO only.

10mm, can't help you out there, I don't shoot it. Don't ask me about 40 either, haven't looked for a box of 40 ammo in two decades. I do know it sells pretty slow at every gun store I go to though.

HST, my choice too, but not because of some gello test or someone got paid to write an article about it. We get crop damage block permits for deer. I use what works best on them, and I have tried just about everything out there. HST does the best. Mk262, another good choice. My only use of that ammo was before I retired from being an 11B when I was a SDM for a while. It made the AR platform a solid 600M rig on a point target in the right hands. Haven't used it since because I don't shoot at woodchucks past 300 anyway, I like stalking closer these days. If I may say so good sir, you have a fine choice in ammo....

Thank you, and so do you.

Thanks for your service to our country.

What I was trying to illustrate is, unfortunately, most modern weapons and ammo are designed with the military and law enforcement in mind.

I do agree with you about not using everything that the military or LE uses. For instance, I would not use barrier blind ammo; because I don't care about auto body and glass penetration. I'm more concerned about over penetration in a home environment. So the new Black Hills TMK 77 gr 5.56mm would be a great option.

But most new 5.56mm projectiles are bonded or a mono-metal design (such as the barnes tsx, Speer loadings, etc) for barrier penetration. For every TMK-ish design there are 4 or 5 military aimed designs. I think if/when Law Enforcement migrates away from the .40 S&W; it will be in a situation that 10mm was. 10mm was cutting edge at one point, but... hardly any military/LE entities (besides the FBI with their 10mm MP5 (or was it UMP)) use it. So, no one designs JHP for it because it's only in use among civilians.

The Government will fund design projects that civilian sales simply won't. So, I think there is a somewhat vested interest in maintaining whatever is in use by the military to be able to take some of the "fruits" so to speak of the industry's catering to that market. I hate to say it but the modern AR has designs tweaks that cost the tax payers millions of dollars to test/vet; we benefit from that.

That is also why any talk of "sporting purposes" in regards to the 2A is ridiculous. But, that's another topic for another day.

Thanks again for your service.

God Bless,

Brandon

[Jeep]

I keep hearing the trend in LE is going to the 9mm. I haven't seen that at all in my neck of the woods. Almost everyone is carrying a .40, and the ones who aren't are carrying a .45. The Gen 2s lasted long enough that the night sights were about dead before we went to 3s to get the rail since weapon lights was the hot new thing. 9mm may last longer, but honestly how many are wearing out the .40 for that to matter?

I'm not smart enough in the realm of ballistics to say what's the best and what's not, but I figure each has an advantage and a disadvantage in any given situation. All I can say is our guys test stuff all the time, and the 165 gr HST .40 has been what we've stuck with for many years now. It's performed very well in police action shootings, has penetrated car doors and glass effectively, and we've had no complaints with it. There is zero push to go to 9mm on my department.

Behind: The .40 and the 165 gr HST are fine choices--but I have seen a lot of cops, including federal LEO's, who have a hard time handling the .40, usually in my opinion because of training issues. Specifically, at a range I shoot at (that has a lot of cops from the many local agencies) I keep seeing cops flinch with their .40's. I saw a federal LEO flinch so bad (her eyes were routinely closed when she pulled the trigger) that she kept putting bullets into the dirt.

It sounds like that most in your department can shoot so it isn't a problem. But for cops who get something like 50 rounds of training ammo a year, or who have a bad flinch (which is more than a few around here), I'd recommend the 9mm in a heartbeat. Now, I know that you don't fix training issues with hardware, but you can mitigate them some, particularly if there seems to be no burning desire to actually fix the training issues.

So while I wouldn't disagree for a moment with a department that wanted .40's and made sure to train its officers to handle it, I think that (1) 9mm is overall just as good for people who can shoot; and (2) is a lot easier to train those who can't.

[Sportster883]

Thank you, and so do you.

Thanks for your service to our country.

What I was trying to illustrate is, unfortunately, most modern weapons and ammo are designed with the military and law enforcement in mind.

I do agree with you about not using everything that the military or LE uses. For instance, I would not use barrier blind ammo; because I don't care about auto body and glass penetration. I'm more concerned about over penetration in a home environment. So the new Black Hills TMK 77 gr 5.56mm would be a great option.

But most new 5.56mm projectiles are bonded or a mono-metal design (such as the barnes tsx, Speer loadings, etc) for barrier penetration. For every TMK-ish design there are 4 or 5 military aimed designs. I think if/when Law Enforcement migrates away from the .40 S&W; it will be in a situation that 10mm was. 10mm was cutting edge at one point, but... hardly any military/LE entities (besides the FBI with their 10mm MP5 (or was it UMP)) use it. So, no one designs JHP for it because it's only in use among civilians.

The Government will fund design projects that civilian sales simply won't. So, I think there is a somewhat vested interest in maintaining whatever is in use by the military to be able to take some of the "fruits" so to speak of the industry's catering to that market. I hate to say it but the modern AR has designs tweaks that cost the tax payers millions of dollars to test/vet; we benefit from that.

That is also why any talk of "sporting purposes" in regards to the 2A is ridiculous. But, that's another topic for another day.

Thanks again for your service.

God Bless,

Brandon

Absolutely. I agree 100%. You are correct in all them points. Police ammo comes in plain white boxes anyway lol, and I'd buy flower boxed HST.

My main point is using police numbers to try and give credit to something does not do much for the product. The 40 has earned so much more on its own in the free market. Police numbers are a drop in an already full bucket.

An example would be my favorite pistol caliber. I prefer the 45GAP. I love the G17 size frame, but hate even the SF (Still Fat) large frame glocks. I am also a 45 fan. I'm such a fan of 45 and Glock I bought a G37 in 2008. I shoot it so much that when I stopped into Glock Inc in Smyrna the armorer replaced every part except the slide, barrel and frame. The trigger housing was actually cracked, yet I never knew it. Fired and functioned just fine. I got back a gun that felt new until I broke it in again. I love that service they have, all for free. Anyway, 10% of all state highway and state police issue the 45GAP. Are 10% of all 45s out there a GAP? Heck no! I love it though and in 09 when there was no ACP ammo I enjoyed regular price GAP ammo. Of which ammo has fallen $3.00-$5.00 a box and is the same price as ACP these days than it was on 08.

I did do a survey of all my shooting buddies though. 31 own and shoot ACP, two others bought a GAP Glock after shooting mine, but mostly use ACP. Works out to just under 10% lol.

Anyways, it's been a pleasure having a conversation with you. Just today I shot some vermin raccoons at grandmas farm, with HST from the G37, then bagged two cotton tails (with ball ammo). One was rather large. I put my guns to work and the second one was the only one I hit on the run. Nothing beats small moving target practice that you can eat with your carry gun.

[Rich]

I started my LE career with a .357 magnum, that was fine. When I went to work for the staties it was a .45acp, fine as well. Eight years ago I transferred to a different division and now carry a .40, once again fine. After tweenty three years in LE work and military service before that, that only thing I've determined about pistol caliber is this: I don't care. With modern ammunition the performance gap is largely closed. The common service calibers have their differences, but it all seems largely academic at this point. The deciding factor is my ability to accurately place the projectile on target, not a few milimeters difference in bore size. If carrying a .40 makes you feel like you've strapped on the hammer of Thor than by all means carry one, it's not a bad choice, but don't fool yourself into thinking it gives you some inherent advantage.

The .40 doesn't need to be driven to higher pressure? The .40 IS a higher pressure round all the way around. Forty caliber pistols will wear out sooner than the comparative nine milimeter. This is not vodoo, it's a fact based on physics not wishful thinking. Your .40 won't spontaneously disassemble on you, but shoot it to destruction next to the comparative 9mm and it will poop the bed sooner every time, garunteed.


(I suspect you don't believe it simply because you've decided not to.)

I believe it if the 9mm pistol is fed standard pressure loads


A 9mm fed a steady diet of Ranger T 127gr + P + have a longer service life than a 40 cal service pistol not so much!
we have some things in common
I to started with 357/38 then went on to Colt 1911`s and on into 9mm. In 1998I wanted to go 40S&W and in 2014 made the switch back to 9mm / P30S V3