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Thread: The 40cal on its way out?

  1. #241
    Member Baldanders's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtcarm View Post
    Guess again. S&W J-frames are hugely popular. Kimber & Colt didn’t decide to start producing small-frame .38/.357s just to see if they could. I believe RIA introduced a carry revolver recently as well.
    Should have placed some "quotes" around that or some other signifier...as a revolver man who often carries a 640 pro, I hardly think .38/.357 is dying. But it seems to sell fairly poorly at Wally World compared to .40 in my neck of the woods.

    When I see gun articles talk about "cheap .38 target ammo" I feel like they are talking about a past now gone.

    .40 is popular enough around here that the local convience store used to stock it, along with .30-30, .243, .308 and .30-06.
    NC shooters seem fond of .40, and .357Sig to a lesser extent. I think .40 is still issued by a lot of LE here.
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  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by El Cid View Post
    It may limp on for years the way some people and agencies keep 45 because they can’t let go psychologically.
    I have spent the last decade running mostly 9mm DA/SA Sigs, and have actually switched back to .45 for duty carry. It all depends on the platform, and what caliber runs best for the shooter in that platform. For me, I run the full sized P320 in .45 better than I do in a full sized P320 9mm from FAST drills at 7rds, to bullseye shots at 50yrds. Logically that doesn't make sense, but the .45 version has a heavier slide and the ergos are superior for my hands enabling for better control for single and two handed shots. At least in full sized P320s my scoring is always better in .45 than 9mm. When the guns get smaller though I tend to favor 9mm as the .45 mag capacity dwindles exponentially, and the muzzle blast and stress on the shorter slides diminishes returns.
    Last edited by Galbraith; 11-11-2018 at 02:52 PM.

  3. #243
    I’m putting this here to avoid derailing the APX thread even further.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thy.Will.Be.Done View Post
    This is pretty much how I feel about it, I usually only consider 9mm as the best choice for smaller pistols that are either sub-compact or single stack. I think the main problem with people regarding the .40 is they tend to focus only on the recoil, rather than the shooting fundamentals. My first pistol was an FNP-40, chambered in .40 obviously, nobody informed me as to the abhorrant recoil it had and I really liked the way it shot.

    Of course, the muzzle would jump when it was fired, but it came right back down quickly and leveled for the next shot... there was no painful abuse. What I really don't understand about the complaints of the .40 recoil is the fact that you can often get .22 trainers or at least a 9mm version if that is not available. Then you can benefit from the cheap and softer shooting ammo while shooting pretty much the same pistol.
    Unfortunately the science doesn’t agree with you. Whatever your 40 caliber pistol can do the same gun in 9mm does as well or better. None of the shooters (LE, military, or private citizens) I know who switched to 9mm were unable to handle 40. They just want the best option for self protection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thy.Will.Be.Done View Post
    Now, I also do feel that many people fire .40 S&W through inappropriate platforms that don't handle the cartridge well. I would wager most of the detractors were shooting it through Glock or some type of concealed carry (sub or single stack) and never bothered to go further down the rabbit hole and just ran back to 9mm crying foul play. I don't have a reference for this but I believe the director of the FBI who made the policy change to .40, still carries the .40 personally.

    I wish I had reference for it, but I didn't think to save where I found it. If this is true, it is saying a lot in my opinion. We live in a lowest common denominator society, where mediocrity is the standard and anything that even the most feeble (mentally and physically) cannot use will be discarded. So here we are, 9mm re-enters the world of law enforcement with about as much fanfare as the .40 came along with.
    Um... what? I’d bet a weeks pay neither the current director nor the guy in charge when the switch was made ever carried a gun. Neither had badges or credentials either. They have agents assigned to protect them. Those agents carried a G21SF for years. Now they carry 9mm Glocks. And if Comey does carry a 40, so what? He knows next to nothing about ballistics.

    Lowest common denominator? Mediocrity? Lol!! I recommend you spend more time researching terminal ballistics and less time typing tired folklore and urban legends about your favorite caliber. But then perhaps you have millions of dollars and years of research and data you forgot to provide that says the experts are wrong?

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by El Cid View Post
    I’m putting this here to avoid derailing the APX thread even further.

    Mine In Bold

    Unfortunately the science doesn’t agree with you. Whatever your 40 caliber pistol can do the same gun in 9mm does as well or better. None of the shooters (LE, military, or private citizens) I know who switched to 9mm were unable to handle 40. They just want the best option for self protection.

    9mm will not reliably crush bone and keep going in a straight line, if it happens it is certainly an outlier rather than the norm

    Um... what? I’d bet a weeks pay neither the current director nor the guy in charge when the switch was made ever carried a gun. Neither had badges or credentials either. They have agents assigned to protect them. Those agents carried a G21SF for years. Now they carry 9mm Glocks. And if Comey does carry a 40, so what? He knows next to nothing about ballistics.

    It really does mean little without a citation to reference, but assuming he did I would say it means that the he feels the right choice for him isn't necessarily the choice he equips agents with

    Lowest common denominator? Mediocrity? Lol!! I recommend you spend more time researching terminal ballistics and less time typing tired folklore and urban legends about your favorite caliber. But then perhaps you have millions of dollars and years of research and data you forgot to provide that says the experts are wrong?
    Ballistics science is still not perfect and is quite complex, the fact that bone is left out of the mix is a major problem to my way of thinking. In my opinion, hunters who shoot critters with all sorts of loads and angles have about as much a case for choosing caliber as an agency spending millions to shoot jell-o blocks but as always YMMV.

    Perhaps this will be disregarded as irrelevant because it does not have an agency name or official credential attached to it, but I find it to be quite a different view of ballistics from somebody who sees it in the daily life in the morgue, whether or not this person is legitimate the views referenced make a lot of sense to my thinking.

    http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20B...a%20morgue.htm

  5. #245
    Site Supporter Trooper224's Avatar
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    I spent the last half of my career in LE being issued a .40, until the last few months when we switched to 9mm. The first half of my career was dominated by the .45acp, in both on and off duty roles, with it all starting out with the .357 Magnum, then the proverbial finger of God. Five years ago I switched to the 9mm for all of my personal needs. On my current job I'm again toting a .40. Between five years in the military and nearly thirty years in law enforcement, I've seen my share of people have their meat sacks perforated. All of this convinced me of one salient point: it doesn't make one damned bit of difference regarding service pistol calibers. Where it lands is far more important than a few millimeters one way or another. When I was a young fire eater and a devotee of the mighty half ninety, I failed to catch on to the fact that a lot of the high speed people I knew were more than satisfied with their anemic .380 long rifle pistols. Maybe they knew something I didn't? It took me a long time to catch up.

    If you just can't imagine carrying anything that doesn't start with four than by all means do so. It will get the job done. But, anecdotes from the stone knives and bear skins era, as well as voodoo science don't mean you're right. I've stopped trying to discuss the topic unless I'm forced into it. No matter how much objective data one presents, some people just won't let their sacred cow off the leash.

    Regarding the future of the .40 S&W: I used to spend time sorting through the brass on the range, to cull all the .40 cases from my .45 or 9mm cases. I rarely have to do that anymore. The 9mm is by far the dominant pistol round I see on the range, as well as in LE use.
    Last edited by Trooper224; 08-17-2019 at 03:19 PM.
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  6. #246
    Hillbilly Elitist Malamute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thy.Will.Be.Done View Post
    I usually stay out of these discussions, and someone with better recall or knowledge can tell me to get back in my lane, but I believe that person was outed as a fraud, and the piece was a work of fiction.

  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thy.Will.Be.Done View Post
    Ballistics science is still not perfect and is quite complex, the fact that bone is left out of the mix is a major problem to my way of thinking. In my opinion, hunters who shoot critters with all sorts of loads and angles have about as much a case for choosing caliber as an agency spending millions to shoot jell-o blocks but as always YMMV.

    Perhaps this will be disregarded as irrelevant because it does not have an agency name or official credential attached to it, but I find it to be quite a different view of ballistics from somebody who sees it in the daily life in the morgue, whether or not this person is legitimate the views referenced make a lot of sense to my thinking.

    http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20B...a%20morgue.htm
    Speaking of hunters, former Kenyan Professional Hunter and American Rifleman editor Finn Aagaard summed up his thoughts on terminal ballistics for hunting as: “Shot Placement is 90% of killing power.”

    Similarly, Vietnam combat vet and retired NYPD Sgt / multiple shootout vet Pat Rogers observed that the NYPD’s often maligned 158 grain +p solid LSWC “worked pretty good if you can shoot.”

    Having seen multiple people shot over the last 24 years most with 9mm, .40 and 5.56, and thousands of LE shooters / trainees, the above sentiments match my experience.

    Does 40 work? Yes. But it does so at greater financial cost and performance cost. Regardless of the skill level, empirical studies of LE shooters show increases in performance with 9mm vs .40.

    Is there any meaningful difference between the performance of common service calibers with modern (barrier blind) duty carry ammunition ? No. Bone is just like any other intermediate barrier.

    As such what ever let’s my people maximize hit potential on vital structures is the best choice.

    Prior to bonded / barrier blind bullets becoming the standard, the additional mass of .40 gave it an advantage in staying together through intermediate barriers with expanding bullets. There was a time 9mm shooters had to choose between adequate penetration and expansion. Those days are over. The future is now.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Malamute View Post
    I usually stay out of these discussions, and someone with better recall or knowledge can tell me to get back in my lane, but I believe that person was outed as a fraud, and the piece was a work of fiction.
    Interesting, would love to see the reference as I will no longer reference this if it is not factual.

  9. #249
    Member TGS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thy.Will.Be.Done View Post
    [B]Ballistics science is still not perfect and is quite complex, the fact that bone is left out of the mix is a major problem to my way of thinking. In my opinion, hunters who shoot critters with all sorts of loads and angles have about as much a case for choosing caliber as an agency spending millions to shoot jell-o blocks but as always YMMV.
    Rounds that do well in testing on intermediate barriers, especially the glass test, often perform admirably in actual shootings.

    It's not "the fact that bone is left out of the mix", it's that you're not paying attention to what tests are most important and most telling.
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  10. #250
    Hillbilly Elitist Malamute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thy.Will.Be.Done View Post
    Interesting, would love to see the reference as I will no longer reference this if it is not factual.

    Its been mentioned here on at least one occasion if not more. I believe DocGKR has brought it up, or someone else familiar with the wound ballistics study community and LE community. In short, it made people curious who it was, as a place with that level of homicides would be known to people in that line of work, and upon some looking into it, it was figured out who it was that wrote it, and they were not who and what they said they were.
    Last edited by Malamute; 08-17-2019 at 04:22 PM.

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