The 40cal on its way out?

[LSP972]

.40S&W FMJFP is often seen on the street, doesn't work any better than 9mm ball of any kind in my observation.

Mine as well; we see a lot of that bullet in the lab.

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[LSP972]

Do LEO agencies not have regular (and more or less guaranteed) in-stock access to Duty rounds as opposed to say the general public?

Depends on "who" your agency is, and when you place an order... but more than one distributor has been known to sell ammunition intended for LE agencies to non-LE retail outlets, because the distributor's mark-up/profit was higher that way.

As for agency purchasing agendas, each one is different, and probably not a good topic for discussion on an open forum.

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[Chuck Haggard]

Only non expanding ammo, FMJ or lead does not matter. People here obsess over 147 gr subsonic flat point vs normal supersonic 115-124 gr ojival point 9 mm, vs 40 180 gr flat point, vs 45 ACP round vs flat point, etc.

I think I'd train with whatever was cheap, and use the highest quality ball ammo I could find for carry, and call it good.

In my observation, FP FMJ pretty much stays point forward in gel and people all of the time, while RN FMJ often yaws and will penetrate less when it does.

Are you allowed to carry in public? If so, those laws seem ridiculous to force a CCW person into choosing ball ammo for carry.

[JBP55]

One local Agency orders ammunition 18 months before it is needed and stores it in a climate controlled warehouse. When it is needed at the range a truck/trailer will deliver several pallets to be stored in a climate controlled Armory at the the range. That Agency was having some difficulty keeping ammunition in stock several years ago and ran low but never ran out.
Our local PD orders a year in advance and stores in a climate controlled "C Can".

[TiroFijo]

I think I'd train with whatever was cheap, and use the highest quality ball ammo I could find for carry, and call it good.

In my observation, FP FMJ pretty much stays point forward in gel and people all of the time, while RN FMJ often yaws and will penetrate less when it does. Thanks! The famous yaw of the 9 mm seems to be a very variable thing, perhaps depending on small differences in bullet design or fleet yaw. The standard 1-10 twist is WAY over what is needed to stabilize even the heaviest bullets available in this caliber, and probably used just for tradition sake.

Are you allowed to carry in public? If so, those laws seem ridiculous to force a CCW person into choosing ball ammo for carry.

Thanks for the advice. You must get a special permit from the police to carry a gun, and yes, these laws are ridiculous.

[Chuck Haggard]

Thanks for the advice. You must get a special permit from the police to carry a gun, and yes, these laws are ridiculous.

I hope at least you can get access to higher quality ball ammo, such as for real military issue stuff, etc. Most of the bulk practice ammo isn't optimal as far as QC when it comes to being used as carry ammo.

[JTQ]

In my observation, FP FMJ pretty much stays point forward in gel and people all of the time, while RN FMJ often yaws and will penetrate less when it does.

Here's an article I've found interesting on the subject that explains why flat points penetrate straight and round nose yaws. The article deals with rifle big game hunting solids, but the bullet nose shape should have the same effect with either pistol or rifle.

http://www.gsgroup.co.za/articlepvdw.html

[Chuck Haggard]

A long time ago some observant guys had figured out that flap point bullets penetrated straighter, and tended to not yaw in tissue.

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_12_KeithSWC.htm

[Jeep]

A long time ago some observant guys had figured out that flap point bullets penetrated straighter, and tended to not yaw in tissue.

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_12_KeithSWC.htm

But, how does one square their view of the effectiveness of flat points with the many observations here about it being difficult to tell the difference between a 9mmFMJ and a .40 FMJFP?

To quote that chapter: "Autopsies revealed that the blunt or flat-pointed bullets did more tissue damage, left bigger holes and resulted in far more bleeding than the puncture wounds of the round-nosed projectiles (these wounds had a tendency to close over and bleed little)."

Without doubting the least what you, Doc and LSP all report, is there something about old-time flat points that were different from modern truncated cones?

Forgive me for returning to this point, but I am genuinely puzzled by this and can't get the data to square.

[Chuck Haggard]

The more effective FPs have a wider meplat, and a sharper leading edge, and frankly are often used on the largest targets, big game larger than deer being an example.

Note one reason why Elmer Keith designed his own bullet was dissatisfaction with the regular SWCs of his time.

All of the available FMJFPs I have seen, and that is most common in the .40, are bullets with very rounded leading edges and don't cut any more efficiently than a RN bullet. The FP likely leads to a slightly larger temp cavity, but at handgun velocities that is wasted.