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Thread: The 40cal on its way out?

  1. #141
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    I'm not Doc but all service caliber FMJ performs pretty much the same and the actual wounds from service caliber FMJ are nearly indistinguishable. The two issues addressed by the current generation of 9mm hollow points were inadequate penetration due to over expansion and /or jacket separation. While not as effective as current 9mm HP, 9mm FMJ doesn't have either of those issues.

  2. #142
    Member DocSabo40's Avatar
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    As a former Marine and current soldier (kind of, the Army is paying my way through dental school) I would be delighted if we stopped following the Hague convention that we never signed. Think it will ever happen though? Not that I will need HSTs in the dental clinic, but still.

  3. #143
    Very Pro Dentist Chuck Haggard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocSabo40 View Post
    Honest question: isn't the 9mm only acceptable when loaded with modern hollow points? I'm a fan of your posts and I've read every sticky, but it seems to me that of all calibers the 9mm relies the most heavily on bullet technology. Take that away and it has issues. Of course so does every other FMJ. Still, a 9mm FMJ has a surface area of .096 sq in, a .40 cal has .127 sq in, and a .45 is .159 in sq. That seems like a pretty big difference. Is that insignificant when the other factors are taken into account? Thanks.
    That sort of math seems simple, in real life it's not. No bullet except a sharp edged wadcutter makes a full sized hole. I've seen .45acp FMJ entrance wounds that were pin holes, just as an example. Tissue is often very elastic in nature.
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  4. #144
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Haggard View Post
    That sort of math seems simple, in real life it's not. No bullet except a sharp edged wadcutter makes a full sized hole. I've seen .45acp FMJ entrance wounds that were pin holes, just as an example. Tissue is often very elastic in nature.
    Don't you suppose some of that is due to the body's swelling reaction?

  5. #145
    Very Pro Dentist Chuck Haggard's Avatar
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    I kinda diverge from Doc when it comes to being stuck with FMJ only ammo.

    For CONUS defense or police work in a full sized pistol I'd likely go with the .45 in 230gr ball. That loading is well know as far as what it does, and one of the things I have noticed is that it often actually stays inside the person shot, or if it exits it doesn't go very far.

    For military work I'd prefer the hottest 9mm FMJ or AP round I can get. Bad guys who carry rifles tend to be wearing stuff, like chest rigs, LBE, etc. In testing that I have done, and seen done, or talked to other competent folks who have tested this, 9mm ball gets through things like a full canteen, loaded AK mags in a chest rig, flak vests, helmets, etc far, far better than the .45 does. IMHO any bullet hole you put in your bad guy trumps no bullet hole in your bad guy.
    I also think 9mm does better against cars than the .45 does.

    Also, I've worked several shootings on the street where 9mm ball was used, and the bullet obviously yawed and caused greater damage than one would excpet from a RN bullet. It doesn't happen every time, but it's rather common in my observation.

    9mm bullets that yaw, example;
    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....-B-115-gr-FMJ)
    Last edited by Chuck Haggard; 03-24-2015 at 11:55 AM.
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  6. #146
    Very Pro Dentist Chuck Haggard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    Don't you suppose some of that is due to the body's swelling reaction?
    I'll let the medical guys answer that one for sure, but many of the people I've seen shot were either very closely after the fact and time for swelling would be limited, or they were dead and dead people don't have body function type responses to trauma after they are dead.
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  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Haggard View Post
    I kinda diverge from Doc when it comes to being stuck with FMJ only ammo.

    For CONUS defense or police work in a full sized pistol I'd likely go with the .45 in 230gr ball. That loading is well know as far as what it does, and one of the things I have noticed is that it often actually stays inside the person shot, or if it exits it doesn't go very far.

    For military work I'd prefer the hottest 9mm FMJ or AP round I can get. Bad guys who carry rifles tend to be wearing stuff, like chest rigs, LBE, etc. In testing that I have done, and seen done, or talked to other competent folks who have tested this, 9mm ball gets through things like a full canteen, loaded AK mags in a chest rig, flak vests, helmets, etc far, far better than the .45 does. IMHO any bullet hole you put in your bad guy trumps no bullet hole in your bad guy.
    I also think 9mm does better against cars than the .45 does.

    Also, I've worked several shootings on the street where 9mm ball was used, and the bullet obviously yawed and caused greater damage than one would excpet from a RN bullet. It doesn't happen every time, but it's rather common in my observation.

    9mm bullets that yaw, example;
    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....-B-115-gr-FMJ)
    Chuck: Your points on penetration are valid, but at the same time the 9mm round nose has always been a mediocre wounding round. If stuck with FMJ--and all else was equal--I'd take a 165 gr. 40 at 1150 fps over a 124 gr. 9 at 1200 fps simply because the .40 will probably be a truncated cone and probably do a somewhat better (though still mediocre) job wounding.

    However, everything else isn't equal and since 9mm is significantly easier to train on and batters guns less, if I were equipping an army, I'd choose 9mm.

    I would also try to create a more terminally effective round, which I think can be done for a lot less money than buying lots of .40 cal. pistols. I think this is where the Army has failed to date, and it appears they are doing nothing of the sort but instead are looking to spend a lot of money unnecessarily.

  8. #148
    Very Pro Dentist Chuck Haggard's Avatar
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    I haven't noted that FMJs in any service pistol caliber wound any differently than any other such bullet of different caliber. .40S&W FMJFP is often seen on the street, doesn't work any better than 9mm ball of any kind in my observation.
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  9. #149
    Site Supporter DocGKR's Avatar
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    Almost every GSW or puncture wound entrance hole we see in tissue ends up being SMALLER than the actual projectile or implement size would suggest due to tissue elasticity closing down the wound--particularly wounds produced by pointed smooth surfaces like on an FMJ, ice pick, target arrow, etc.... This is true on patients we see in the ED, OR, and on autopsy. Note that holes in hard organs and bone can behave a bit differently, as do projectiles with sharper leading edges. For example, I recently treated a guy who was shot in the maxilla with a .38 Super 130 gr FMJ fired at about 1250 fps. He walked into the ED about 6-8 hours after being shot. The actual hole in the facial tissue measures only about 6 mm. Note that the underlying bone damage was more irregular and overall a bit larger in size than the soft tissue entrance wound.

    All FMJ is about the same when it comes to wounding. 9 mm tends to punch through metal and armor better, while .45 Auto tends to do a bit better against glass and wall board. But honestly, they all are less than ideal against soft tissue.
    Facts matter...Feelings Can Lie

  10. #150
    Doc: My understand (and observation) with animals is that a flat point does better than a round point. Do you think that can be observed with humans or are the differences too small to tell?

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