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Thread: The 40cal on its way out?

  1. #181
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    This is turning into a good discussion . . .

    I retired from one PD (and went back after 7 weeks as a part-timer). There I'm issues a G22 gen IV with a Streamight TLR WML. Issued duty ammo is 165 grain Winchester Ranger.

    I work part time for another PD and there I carry a personal G35 gen 4. Duty ammo is Hornady Critical Defense.

  2. #182
    Member Matt Helm's Avatar
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    My prediction is the .40 S&W will make a comeback ,with better bullets & more efficient propellant.
    When that happens, a lot of folks that remember it's origin, will be in old folks homes or dead.
    Custer wore the 1st "Arrow shirt".
    Given the size & power of “Ivan”, we must now … and ever be Vigilant.

  3. #183
    Member Baldanders's Avatar
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    I would be really interested to see a breakdown of sales of pistol caliber rounds by state. If our WalMarts are any indication, 9mm is king, .40 is queen, .45 still doing fine, but .38/.357 is very lightly stocked and seems to be on the way out. It is also vey high priced--I think you could shoot a .357 SIG cheaper than a .38 if you were relying on Wally World ammo in northern NC.

    I am really feeling my recent 45th birthday-- I remember when the first .40 Smiths showed up in my LNGS in Cincinnati and one of the old duffers behind the counter offered the opinion that he had no use for a .40 as he had 9mm and .45acp guns. My group of friends seems to be in the boat. I have one friend who owns a .40. My experience with shooting .40 is a half mag through a 239 once. I would jump on a reasonably priced 239, but if a get a cheap trade in Glock, SIG or S&W .40, it will be getting a drop in 9mm barrel.

  4. #184
    Member KhanRad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baldanders View Post
    I would be really interested to see a breakdown of sales of pistol caliber rounds by state. If our WalMarts are any indication, 9mm is king, .40 is queen, .45 still doing fine, but .38/.357 is very lightly stocked and seems to be on the way out. It is also vey high priced--I think you could shoot a .357 SIG cheaper than a .38 if you were relying on Wally World ammo in northern NC.

    I am really feeling my recent 45th birthday-- I remember when the first .40 Smiths showed up in my LNGS in Cincinnati and one of the old duffers behind the counter offered the opinion that he had no use for a .40 as he had 9mm and .45acp guns. My group of friends seems to be in the boat. I have one friend who owns a .40. My experience with shooting .40 is a half mag through a 239 once. I would jump on a reasonably priced 239, but if a get a cheap trade in Glock, SIG or S&W .40, it will be getting a drop in 9mm barrel.
    If you really want a base gun with a drop in barrel for multiple calibers, then the base gun should be the caliber you plan to use in a deadly force encounter(literally to hell and back). The platform often dictates the caliber used. For instance, most guns are great 9mm guns, but only a few are great .40S&W guns. The only reason why I would carry a .40S&W these days is if I worked highway patrol meaning that I would be fighting in and around vehicles a lot.............however, I do that now and I still choose 9mm.
    "A man with an experience is not a slave to a man with an opinion."

  5. #185
    Everyone year or three on another board, I run a poll of LEOs to see what caliber their agency is issuing. Back when .40 was it in the LEO market, it had about 50% of the responses, with 9mm having about a third, and everything else splitting the rest. I ran it again a 9mm and .40 both came in at 40%, with everything else splitting the rest. So .40 is far from dead. But it's trajectory is not upward.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baldanders View Post
    I would be really interested to see a breakdown of sales of pistol caliber rounds by state. If our WalMarts are any indication, 9mm is king, .40 is queen, .45 still doing fine, but .38/.357 is very lightly stocked and seems to be on the way out. It is also vey high priced--I think you could shoot a .357 SIG cheaper than a .38 if you were relying on Wally World ammo in northern NC.

    I am really feeling my recent 45th birthday-- I remember when the first .40 Smiths showed up in my LNGS in Cincinnati and one of the old duffers behind the counter offered the opinion that he had no use for a .40 as he had 9mm and .45acp guns. My group of friends seems to be in the boat. I have one friend who owns a .40. My experience with shooting .40 is a half mag through a 239 once. I would jump on a reasonably priced 239, but if a get a cheap trade in Glock, SIG or S&W .40, it will be getting a drop in 9mm barrel.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Helm View Post
    My prediction is the .40 S&W will make a comeback ,with better bullets & more efficient propellant.
    I think so as well.



    Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

  7. #187
    THE THIRST MUTILATOR Nephrology's Avatar
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    I may have already posted this, but .40S&W is still the cheapest and most low-effort way to make major power factor in USPSA with factory ammo.
    Last edited by Nephrology; 07-27-2018 at 09:16 PM.

  8. #188
    Very Pro Dentist Chuck Haggard's Avatar
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    Ref "heavy clothing";

    Penetration through heavy clothing with even the shittiest bullets, such as Glasers, is a non issue. Performance AFTER heavy clothing is the issue.

    I regularly see people, not necessarily here, posting that they use light JHPs in the summer and ball ammo or heavier JHPs in the winter due to "heavy clothing", implying that bullets might stop in the clothing. That's not how any of this works.

    Over the decades at my old job we shot a lot of people with 124gr +p Gold Dot. We never had a bullet failure, including through very heavy clothing and car barriers.

    An extreme example was a armed robbery suspect one of my friends shot. Bad guy was wearing one of those big poofy old school Oakland Raiders coats over Carhartt coveralls, over a denim jacket, over a flannel shirt, over Long Johns over a T-shirt. Shooting was in a blizzard at about -20 degrees. Duty pistol was a S&W 3906. Damn near worst possible case scenario for a JHP to still expand, and both bullets looked like they fell off of the Speer Gold Dot bullet poster. They also penetrated more than enough.
    Last edited by Chuck Haggard; 07-28-2018 at 08:36 AM.
    I am the owner of Agile/Training and Consulting
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  9. #189
    It seems to me that this thread is an exposition of nuanced inanity packaged as reasoned logic supported by purported scientific protocol that has yet to be revealed to inquiring minds.

    An article in a late 90's issue of the FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin indicated that it cost governmental agencies a half mil to put one cop in-service. Adjusting for inflation and considering the rule of 72, that has to have reached at least a mil. Worse, while it's possible that some posters here do, I know of not a single law enforcement agency that would issue a cartridge with PROVEN inferior efficacy. Law enforcement agencies test the heck outta stuff before issuing it to their cops. Multiply that by a factor of 10 when it cops to officer survival gear. Usually large sheriffs' offices with big R&D budgets do extensive testing and share results will allied agencies.

    There is proven tactical efficacy of suppressive fire, which large capacity have over limited capacity. Preventing a bad guy from killing you is sound tactical protocol. Please, guys, spare me of the neophyte, gun magazine entertain BS of, "You're responsible for every shot fried from your weapon." No, cops and good guys aren't responsible as long as they're within their agencies' training protocol, and suppressive fire is. Bad guys, under the felony murder rule, are responsible for all shots fired at them.

    It might be a regional thing, but to me it's outright lack of knowledge to even remotely assert that law enforcement agencies would use a less effective cartridge due to a CFO's recommendation. Do people really believe that law enforcement agencies would knowingly place their officers' lives at rick to save maybe 50k a year?

    It's patently obvious that 9MM aficionados have built their fortresses upon their reliance that bullet technology has made it equal to the .40 S&W and .45 ACP. They'll even refer to what they assert is scientific proof, yet not a one has yet to reveal scientific research and methodology used to prove testing validity. It's a very tenuous extrapolation from gelatin tests to actual intended application. Gelatin doesn't shoot back, nor is it physiologically affected by PCP, meth, alcohol, etc. It's just as tenuous to extrapolate results of one actual shooting to another. There are far too many factors to isolate any one as causal of anything. Each and every shooting is individualistic with no scientific predictive value to the next.

    That the FBI has adopted the 9MM as its issued cartridge tells me a big fat zero. I'd want to know what handguns majority of its cops decide to carry. Are they going to carry the FBI's issued handgun? Will a majority carry a handgun chambered for the .40 S&W? The .45 ACP? Knowledge will be found in what FBI cops carry, not the FBI's issued cartridge.

    I've never expected any handgun cartridge to expand like the magic mushrooms that handgun cartridge manufacturers love to display in marketing media.

    While I'm on the bullet topic, let me attempt to refute a holy grail of many posters here. ANY hit on a bad guy is a good hit. Some are better than others, but any hit is a good hit. And it might be to only hit you'll get. A gunfight, by definition, means a bad guy wants you reduced to evidence of murder and autopsied the following morning. Are you going to help him achieve his immediate objective? If you stand toe-to-toe and take precise aim, have your crap in one sock because you're likely to meet God. The longer you remain a stationary target for a bad guy who wants to reduce you to room temperature, the drastically higher the probability of your taking rounds.

    If you can't hip point at 6 feet or shoulder point at 10' or shoulder point using front sight only at 21' feet, you might want to reassess your ability to survive a gunfight. Maybe handgun carry ain't for you. The longer you remain within a bad guy's sight picture, the higher the probability a pathologist will determine your cause of death. Survivors know how to shoot first (situational awareness), shoot fast (even a miss is a good shot if it suppresses a bad guy's ability to send rounds your way), and get the hell outta a bad guy's line of sight. Another hugely significant deadly consequence of aimed fire is surrendering to the involuntary response of tunnel vision. Keep both eyes open and your head moving for visuals of other bad guys. It's likely the bad guy you don't see due to the involuntary response of tunnel vision who'll cause your ascension to Heaven. LEARN TO POINT SHOOT. Believe me, it's easy to master

    The only known way of surviving a gunfight is to not get in one. If Rule One of gun fighting is not an option, Rule Two becomes operative: DON'T GET SHOT. A shot cop is worse than no help to anyone. He becomes a liability to other cops. He has to be extracted for medical care, which places rescuing cops' lives in danger. Do not make yourselves easy targets for bad guys who intend upon making your corpse work for a pathologist.

    More important than knowing when to engage is knowing when not to engage. If you can avoid engaging and getting the hell outta Dodge, do it. It's the wisest decision you can make. If engaging appears unavoidable, know where barriers (a barrier will stop an incoming round) are, and how you're gonna get your ass behind it.

    Every single ship destroyed at Pearl Harbor was obsolete. The USS Wisconsin was obsolete before it hit water. Billy Mitchell correctly predicted that air power would become the primary naval weapon. The Battle of Midway was the first naval battle that was fought entirely by aircraft. Evolving technology will determine strategies. Asymmetrical and non-kinetic warfare are latest battle strategies. James Rickards can destroy a country without the US Military firing a single shot. Is the destruction of Venezuela's economy the outcome of a CIA plot to effect regime change? Who the hell knows.

    I often wonder whether fighter aircraft is obsolete. God only knows what weapons we have and what weapons our military is developing. The point is technology will determine tactics.

    When the US Military abandoned the 1911-A1 for the 9MM, I was devastated. Then I thought about the transition. We've come a long way since Revolutionary War muskets. In fact, the primary cause of huge fatalities of the Civil War was due to Revolutionary War battle tactics deployed against modern weaponry. Skirmish lines, especially at Gettysburg, were the direct cause of unconscionable human carnage. Skirmish line soldiers were easy targets for modern rifles capable of 1000 yard accuracy, not limited to 50 yard accuracy of Revolutionary War muskets.

    My theory is that battle handguns are obsolete. There is no doubt that the 1911-A1 .45 ACP had unquestionable utility during WWI due to limitations of the Springfield. "The best damned battle rifle ever invented," the M-1 Garand, according to Patton, had a severe reloading problem causing soldiers to rely upon the 1911-A1, especially during Japanese Bonsai suicide charges in the Pacific Theater. The Garand was obsolete when Patton bestowed his famous accolade. Technological improvements in our battle rifles have made battle handguns obsolete. I'd much rather carry more 30 round magazines for an M4 than any battle handgun.

    Often overlooked or unknown is that most of the world's countries issued handguns to their military officers not for battle, but for in-field executions of their own soldiers. Hence, large caliber handgun were unnecessary to dispatch a disobedient soldier. The USA & Great Britain used large caliber handguns to kill enemy soldiers, not their own soldiers.

    Mostly among 9MM aficionados, the arcane and inane are transitioned into nebulous scientific proof that their beloved cartridge is as good as the .40 S&W or the .45 ACP. They'll create "scientific" methodology and conduct testing methodology designed to prove their hypotheses. I'm good. If it helps them convince themselves, I'm good with their testing all year long and into the next century. A Ph.D. in physics ain't necessary to know that no two shootings are identical. I remember being admonishment by a man's man sergeant who, by himself, had chased down an armed banger and put a .380 between his eyes, which was anomaly for him. He normally carried a 1911-A1. He told me that bad guys are tough. They'll take a lot of rounds and keep on shooting. Add PCP, meth, alcohol, etc. to a bad guy's CNS, and his durability increases geometrically. Apparently what's left of their substance addled brains ain't enough to inform the rest of their bodies that they're dead.

    There are more handgun cartridge experts than NASA scientists. Everyone's a damned handgun cartridge expert. All they gotta do is disseminate the image of their expertise. Gelatin testing is almost always their preferred vehicle for conveying their expertise. But if we know handgun tactics and handgun limitations, we can use our prior knowledge to discern fact from camouflaged opinion. And here's fact: cops are trained to shoot and keep shooting until a threat is no longer a threat. Hence, it's common for bad guys to be autopsied with a whole lotta bullet wounds. Cops know that the vertical dead can still kill them.

    The last handgun I was FORCED to carry was an H&K USP .45 ACP. Erstwhile sycophants who had managed to maneuver themselves into administrative positions had decided upon handgun uniformity among cops with disparate physical traits. An exception was made for a woman whose hands were too small to fit around the enormous grips of the double-stack handgun. She was granted variance to carry the single stack version of the H&K USP .45 ACP. I was not a happy camper with that huge and heavy handgun. I'd of been a whole lot happier with a 1911-A1 .45 ACP. Administrators who love to display their omniscience ain't known for admitting hasty decisions that might've been too damned hasty. The H&K USP was an excellent handgun. However, it was huge and heavy.

    The best handgun I've carried over the course of my career was a Sig P229 .40S&W. The P229 has a forged slide as opposed to a stamped slide of the famed Sig P226. I read somewhere within this encyclopedia of a thread that .40 S&W handguns aren't as durable as 9MM. That might be true for converted handguns; that is, 9MM handguns that were converted to fire .40S&W. I'm not sure of the validity of that theory. I can see how it'd be problematic to prove due to plethora of confounding factors. I can definitively write that the Sig P229 was the most reliable and accurate handgun I've ever carried. It fired every range ammo fed to it. On-duty & off, I carried 180 grain Ranger ammo. The Sig P229 was lightweight, had an excellent natural point, was very easy to maneuver, and, most importantly, I had complete confidence in it.

    The recoil thing that some posters have going on seems to me to be more nuance of nebulous value. I've never noticed difference between semiautos I've carried: 9MM, .40 S&W, & .45 ACP. Tactical significance is keeping muzzle on threat, and I've had zero trouble doing so with all three. If others can discern recoil difference, I'm good. I couldn't.

    The end game is that by now we all know that when one holds an emotional attachment to a handgun cartridge, he can become Einstein at rationalizing his choice. He'll even bust out purported science that he believes buttresses his choice. Pared to pith, it's all opinion. When mated with tactical deployment, we know that there is no such thing as two identical shootings, that drugs and/or alcohol will affect physiological response to trauma, and the mentally infirm tend to react abnormally to trauma.

    If you have a favorite cartridge, go with it. It will be your personal preference, assuredly based upon science that supports your choice along with confirming anecdotes.

    A friend with whom I used to work put 6 man stopper rounds (the mystical .357 Mag) into the chest of a very bad dude who was so dusted (PCP) that he couldn't figure out how to rack a round in a shotgun. Those 6 man stopper rounds didn't faze the bad guy. A single 870 round to the chest did reduce him to evidence and property of the coroner. Hence, when I hear or read "man stopper" my neophyte warning detector is activated.

    Go with your boat floating round. It's an individual choice. Only you should care, for self-defense is a very personal choice. Only you know what's right for you. My advice is to be circumspect when it comes to extrapolating gelatin test data to actual bad guys. Bad guys can soak up a lotta lead before transitioning to their next lives.

    The .40 S&W is an excellent cartridge. I don't see it going anywhere. In fact, it's downright popular among So Cal cops.

    Remember, there's a handgun expert behind every gun shop counter.

    The entire dynamic changes when rounds are heading your way.
    Last edited by Trumpster; 07-28-2018 at 10:17 AM.

  10. #190
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    Take a hard look at how many larger agencies throughout the country that traditionally were 40 cal agencies either have or are in the process of transitioning to 9mm upon the cycle of replacement of duty weapons. There are solid reasons why this is happening.

    Within the same design of bullet, the performance is the same, or close enough between the 9m and the 40. (Go talk with the Chief of Staff at any inter-city level 1 trauma center's Emergency Department. Ask if he can tell the difference between someone shot in the chest with a 9mm vs someone being shot in the same location with a 40 cal. Care to guess what he'll say...?) Wear on the gun is less with a 9mm. Felt recoil is less with a 9mm, thereby making it easier for the average shooter to put rounds on target, demonstrated by the overall average increase in qualification scores within the agency. Training ammunition for 9mm is cheaper. And training ammunition makes up the majority of an agency's ammunition budget. Maybe not that big of a deal if you only buy a couple of cases per year. My agency goes through around 1.3 million rounds per year, so yes the cost difference between 9mm and 40 ammunition needs to be considered.

    Is the 40 cal dead? far from it. But is it going to remain the dominant Lae Enforcement caliber in this country? I highly doubt it.

    The reason is simple, it just makes sense.

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