Knives for Primary Self Defense

[Wondering Beard]

Not an expert either; very far from one actually.

Like others here, I've also taken classes from Bram Frank and others and I carry blades every day, either as support to my carry gun, or by themselves if I couldn't carry a gun and the law still allowed blades.

As far as public perception is concerned, yeah using a blade in self defense is not going to look good compared to using a gun and, depending on the DA, one would would probably have to spend more to defend oneself in court for using a knife. However, if your self defense claim is solid (just like it would be if you used a gun), the odds of winning are very high. Like in the use of the gun if you can document your training, show and explain why you did what you did, it goes a hell of a long way towards legal victory.

As to the Kali/escrima/arnis training, there is a big difference between what you see in magazines and what is actually taught by folks who focus FMAs for present day self defense. What Mike Janich teaches is heavily influenced by FMAs, as is what Southnarc teaches (from what I've seen and read, I haven't taken one of his classes yet) after all the Pikal knife is, I believe, a descendant of the Pekiti Tirsia Philipino knife art; Bram Frank's "biomechanical cutting" approach (not too dissimilar from Janich's system) is an almost traditional Philipino approach and I won't mention the Sayok system, and there are plenty of others (I think Taranis' approach has more of a Pencak silat origin). While the traditional "defang the snake" approach (as taught to beginners) is not as applicable as it once was the concepts that it carries are still very useful.

P.S. Like Nyeti (whose design,the HiTS I got introduced to by our own Hizzies' article in modern service weapons and presently carry) the closest to "naked" is an Emerson folding Karambit for me. Both knives are wonderful tools for everyday living, which is the primary work they do (the Karambit for light stuff and the HiTS for heavier work), and really serve well for defense.

[45dotACP]

The "defang the snake" approach is an interesting approach to me, but I think if I were defending myself with a blade, my attacks would be at the face.

Sure, cutting up someone's hands/arms for a parry might get them to drop their weapon out of surprise/pain/slippery blood, but slicing a gash across the eyelids or opening up the forehead makes for a lot of blood in the eyes and might just tip the scales in my favor enough to be able to run away.

How someone would ever drive deep enough or hard enough to transect the hamstring tendons with a 3-4" folding knife underneath even a pair of jeans or slacks (let alone heavy, layered clothing) is beyond me...Tendons are tough things and hardly ever is there only just one in one location, usually there's bundles of them from different muscles that insert at different bony structures. Nerves typically lie beneath tendons...not always, but mostly. The body has evolved some pretty sophisticated defensive systems for vital structures and organs. You'd have to to be using a fairly large, fairly heavy blade.

Collegiate level cadaver dissection is an interesting course and if you get the chance to take it, I recommend it. It certainly did away with a lot of the myths I heard on self defense...like the "Hollywood Neck Break" and a lot of the "death touch" silliness like stopping the heart with a single blow (our instructor specifically told us about commotio cordis but also explained the extremely unlikely nature of such an event).

Not to discount FMA, as it is a very effective fighting form, and the knife techniques still do have validity, as the hands are a fairly vulnerable target, sensitive to pain, and a number (there are something like 28 different muscles in the forearm) of tendons run fairly close to the surface and could theoretically be targeted, but people talking about slicing through the hamstring, or severing the tendons attaching the the Greater and Lesser Tubercles on the Humerus is gonna be tough to do on someone in a heavy winter coat or a thick pair of jeans unless you're using a hatchet or a meat cleaver.

[Dagga Boy]

I have been to way too many stabbing investigations and formulated my own theories on a lot of this. I don't discount a thing witht blades, and I would actually prefer to get shot in many cases. I have seen that the large muscle areas take slashes well, but these are the areas where I saw fatalities when stabs were used (mostly back and chest) lthough it is messy. Small areas get horribly mauled in slash attacks. I have seen some horrific disfiguring fight stopping injuries with fairly small blades working against muscles that control the external limbs.

Essentially sharpened Phillips head screwdrivers run like a sewing machine through the upper torso was devastating. Things like carpet knives run through forearms and legs put folks down......where often times the guy with the Phillips head went to work.

[JHC]

I have been to way too many stabbing investigations and formulated my own theories on a lot of this. I don't discount a thing witht blades, and I would actually prefer to get shot in many cases. I have seen that the large muscle areas take slashes well, but these are the areas where I saw fatalities when stabs were used (mostly back and chest) lthough it is messy. Small areas get horribly mauled in slash attacks. I have seen some horrific disfiguring fight stopping injuries with fairly small blades working against muscles that control the external limbs.

Essentially sharpened Phillips head screwdrivers run like a sewing machine through the upper torso was devastating. Things like carpet knives run through forearms and legs put folks down......where often times the guy with the Phillips head went to work.

VERY useful! Noted that individual self dynamics WAY different than team murders. (I may never get over the Janich dip/spin around cut his hamstring pictures in Tactical Knives).

[Artemas]

Honestly, the only thing I think a person needs to worry about is practicality as a utility tool. I often have several knives on me, but the folder I am likely to have when if have nothing else is a folding Karambit. While I have extensive time training with them, I also found it is my number one favorite knife for opening boxes. I would simply say for a non government employee..and them too in many cases, make sure the knife has utility usability, and you can demonstrate that. Many jurisdictions do not allow knives to be carried as weapons. I would keep this in mind.

Speaking of public perception on defensive knives... A younger me who could not buy guns, but liked "cool" knives, picked up a Emerson super Karambit. Even after some training, I have been leery of carrying a non standard blade design. Thoughts?

[Dagga Boy]

One of the things to look at is techniques used by blade cultures. We are not one. Our culture is very much a gun oriented culture and large impact weapons (baseball bats and apple pie). If you look at combatives in places like the Philippines, and the Indonesian Archipelago, you will see techniques that are taught because they generally work in a culture that uses them. Things stay in systems because they work and evolve.

[Wondering Beard]

I've personally removed the "cutting up the inside of the forearm along with a parry", as it is taught in the first drills of most kali schools, or cutting up large muscle groups, from my tool bag. They're nowhere near as easy to strike or get the blade deep into, to get the required effect as the teaching implies. However, the crook of the arm (depending on clothing), the inside of the wrist, the muscles and tendons just above the knee, the tendons behind the knee are good targets. It is actually surprising how deep a cut one can make from a small folder through a thick pair of jeans (heavy coat, thick leather jacket, not so much); the karambit can be pretty devastating for that. I think the concepts behind attacking those vulnerable areas, and many of the techniques to get at them still hold a lot of value but the more traditional methods as presented in the magazines that JHC was mentioning, have more weaknesses than originally thought (and they're in glossy magazines that are very much like the gun magazines promoting the latest 45 vs 9mm article)

I like head/face slashes if I have the distance, they're sort of like jabs with a knife.

Frankly, the more I learn, the more I like what I have seen of Southnarc's curriculum and I have gone much more towards a thrust/stab approach. I just won't dismiss what people with a lot more experience and knowledge than me who prefer cutting to stabbing for a lot of situations (like Bram) have to say on the subject.

P.S.: for some interesting concepts on knife work, James Williams' videos by Panteo are very much worth a look.

[Wondering Beard]

One of the things to look at is techniques used by blade cultures. We are not one. Our culture is very much a gun oriented culture and large impact weapons (baseball bats and apple pie). If you look at combatives in places like the Philippines, and the Indonesian Archipelago, you will see techniques that are taught because they generally work in a culture that uses them. Things stay in systems because they work and evolve.

Well said.

[JHC]

I've personally removed the "cutting up the inside of the forearm along with a parry", as it is taught in the first drills of most kali schools, or cutting up large muscle groups, from my tool bag. They're nowhere near as easy to strike or get the blade deep into, to get the required effect as the teaching implies. However, the crook of the arm (depending on clothing), the inside of the wrist, the muscles and tendons just above the knee, the tendons behind the knee are good targets. It is actually surprising how deep a cut one can make from a small folder through a thick pair of jeans (heavy coat, thick leather jacket, not so much); the karambit can be pretty devastating for that. I think the concepts behind attacking those vulnerable areas, and many of the techniques to get at them still hold a lot of value but the more traditional methods as presented in the magazines that JHC was mentioning, have more weaknesses than originally thought (and they're in glossy magazines that are very much like the gun magazines promoting the latest 45 vs 9mm article)

I like head/face slashes if I have the distance, they're sort of like jabs with a knife.

Frankly, the more I learn, the more I like what I have seen of Southnarc's curriculum and I have gone much more towards a thrust/stab approach. I just won't dismiss what people with a lot more experience and knowledge than me who prefer cutting to stabbing for a lot of situations (like Bram) have to say on the subject.

P.S.: for some interesting concepts on knife work, James Williams' videos by Panteo are very much worth a look.

Icepick grip with edge facing me; stab and rip sounds damned intuitive and "organic" like Nature. For bottom line basics taught asap. ????

[Wondering Beard]

Speaking of public perception on defensive knives... A younger me who could not buy guns, but liked "cool" knives, picked up a Emerson super Karambit. Even after some training, I have been leery of carrying a non standard blade design. Thoughts?

Nyeti's second to last sentence provides, I think, the best answer.

For me, for my specific needs and uses, the regular sized Emerson Karambit fits the bill exactly, so I'll take the possible extra legal problems along the way for a tool that works really well for me.

Examine your needs and maybe the answer will be positive or not.

P.S.: I really enjoy cool knives (and Emerson knives) and have quite a few but they rarely get carried.