Wake Up Call

[ScotchMan]

Some background first:

Have been shooting/carrying a G19 since August. Before that I was briefly carrying a PPQ, and before that a PPS. I switched to the Glock for all the reasons everyone is familiar with, but probably the biggest was that I was just a little uncomfortable with appendix carry of the PPQ's light trigger. In retrospect, the pound of added weight on the Glock is probably not going to do much if I've failed my other "don't shoot yourself" checks.

I haven't been making it to the range as often as I'd like lately, so last week when I took the Glock out, I was pretty disappointed with my performance, but attributed it to being a little rusty. This week I stopped by again and decided to take the PPQ for fun and so a buddy of mine could try it.

In the picture below, the left is 50 rounds with the G19, the right is 50 rounds with the PPQ. This is at approximately 10 yards, mostly slow fire with nothing fancy (two hands two feet from ready position). I recently put Trijicon HDs on the Glock, but don't believe that is the reason for the spread, as I remember it looking similar with the stock sights. The PPQ still has OEM sights.



So...wow. Maybe I wasn't as rusty as I thought, I just suck at shooting a Glock. I am seriously considering going back to the Walther now, as I was smart enough (for once) to not sell anything and still have my JMC holster and mag carriers for it. But I am debating whether that is the right approach, or if I should focus the time and energy on improving with the G19. At what point do you draw the line and carry a gun that might be less convenient (parts, replacements, mags, accessory availability, price) but that you just shoot better?

Another option might be putting a different connector in the Glock so that it has a trigger approaching the weight and feel of the PPQ's. That would be a more apples to apples comparison.

[olstyn]

At what point do you draw the line and carry a gun that might be less convenient (parts, replacements, mags, accessory availability, price) but that you just shoot better?

A not unreasonable argument could be made for the idea that it's easy enough to mitigate parts availability issues by simply buying replacements ahead of time. Accessory availability seems like a non-issue, given that you've already got holsters & mag carriers, and from what I've seen buying for my P99c, Walther mags are becoming more easily available and lower in price than they used to be. Seems to me, at least, as though you're worrying about something relatively minor in this case. Pick the gun you like better and drive on, IMO.

[Chuck Haggard]

I strongly think grip size and how it's configured are underappreciated nowadays. Back in the wheelgun days guys knew that they often needed to have stocks made to fit their hands. Now it's "one size fits all", which no workee for many people.

I recall having a similar conversation with a friend at work when we were issued 3rd gen S&W 9mms, with the issued gun being a 5906. He just could not run the DA trigger, or the safety, well due to hand size vs gun fit. He was hung up on capacity and didn't want to give up the 15 round mag, but I got him to try a 3913 and he was dead nuts on with that gun.
He ended up buying a 3906, had it NP3'd by Robar, and started carrying it on duty as his primary, he was a happy guy.

I'll note that he was 100% on his two shootings, the second being with his single stack, and he made his hits quickly under some pretty tough conditions (the first was a contact shooting, so "doesn't count" in my book...)

[ScotchMan]

I strongly think grip size and how it's configured are underappreciated nowadays. Back in the wheelgun days guys knew that they often needed to have stocks made to fit their hands. Now it's "one size fits all", which no workee for many people.

I definitely feel very comfy on the PPQ's grip. That was one of the things I mentally discarded when switching to the Glock; it doesn't need to feel nice it just needs to work. I have never encountered a gun I couldn't shoot well if I focused on the fundamentals, until this Glock. I'm not the best shooter in the world or anything but if I take my time at 10 yards I should be able to have everything more or less touching, and usually can with whatever I pick up.

I wonder if I should test this gun from a rest. My buddy had a tough time with it as well but shot the PPQ as well as I did.

[Wayne Dobbs]

So try running it at with some drills that are a bit more operationally relevant and see what you get. You have a good idea of the difference between slow fire results with each pistol (assuming you ran the same drills with each).

[EricM]

Did you have the same impression of not shooting the Glock as well as the PPQ when you initially switched to it back in August? If you think you were just a bit more dialed in then, perhaps spend a bit of time dryfiring the Glock now and then do a reshoot. Maybe take a look at DOTW 95: Press 600. Also do some comparison drills at speed not just slow fire.

I agree that the extra pound of trigger pull is probably not going to make the difference on an ND while reholstering...but a device to block a partially cocked striker will, and was a factor for me being comfortable switching to Glocks from hammer fired guns for AIWB carry.

[ScotchMan]

Did you have the same impression of not shooting the Glock as well as the PPQ when you initially switched to it back in August? If you think you were just a bit more dialed in then, perhaps spend a bit of time dryfiring the Glock now and then do a reshoot. Maybe take a look at DOTW 95: Press 600. Also do some comparison drills at speed not just slow fire.

I agree that the extra pound of trigger pull is probably not going to make the difference on an ND while reholstering...but a device to block a partially cocked striker will, and was a factor for me being comfortable switching to Glocks from hammer fired guns for AIWB carry.

No, I didn't. I did a comparison at that time, and found I could shoot the Glock faster because of the reduced perceived recoil, with a minimal difference in accuracy. It is possible that skill with it declines faster because of the trigger, which may be a factor worth considering in which one to carry as well (skill declines significantly under stress, etc) If I shoot the PPQ more "naturally" well, maybe that is something I shouldn't ignore.

I could certainly devote some dry fire time to the Glock, but I'm not sure the juice is worth the squeeze.

Out of curiosity, what device did you get to block the striker on the Glock? I have to assume you are one of the lucky few with a Gadget, but if not I am interested.

[EricM]

It is possible that skill with it declines faster because of the trigger, which may be a factor worth considering in which one to carry as well (skill declines significantly under stress, etc) If I shoot the PPQ more "naturally" well, maybe that is something I shouldn't ignore.

On the other hand, if the crisper trigger of the PPQ is what is enhancing slow fire accuracy for you, perhaps that advantage won't translate to performance at speed under stress. If the benefit is due to the grip or trigger reach or something else though, perhaps it would. I'm not suggesting one way or another, just something to consider.

I could certainly devote some dry fire time to the Glock, but I'm not sure the juice is worth the squeeze.

Fair point. I've only recently started doing much dry fire work so I'm hardly one to talk. But maybe it only takes 15 minutes twice a month or something for your body to remember what a perfect press feels like. For now at least I was primarily suggesting dry fire to help eliminate the trigger press as the cause of the accuracy difference for purposes of a near-term slow fire comparison. Call your shots ruthlessly during dry fire on a small target and see if your results improve.

Out of curiosity, what device did you get to block the striker on the Glock? I have to assume you are one of the lucky few with a Gadget, but if not I am interested.

I was referring primarily to the future release of the Gadget. While Tom Jones has indicated that gadget-like functionality may be possible to implement on some fully-cocked striker platforms (he referred to the VP9, not sure if he's looked at a PPQ), it would not be as straightforward and would be a ways down the road compared to the Glock. That said, as an intermediate solution I've been using NDZ's striker indicator on my training and competition guns, if you've handled a PPS it makes the Glock very similar. The Gadget looks to be a more robust design, will probably work better, and has likely been more rigorously tested, but for the time being I'll take every safety advantage I can get.

[HCM]

No, I didn't. I did a comparison at that time, and found I could shoot the Glock faster because of the reduced perceived recoil, with a minimal difference in accuracy. It is possible that skill with it declines faster because of the trigger, which may be a factor worth considering in which one to carry as well (skill declines significantly under stress, etc) If I shoot the PPQ more "naturally" well, maybe that is something I shouldn't ignore.

I could certainly devote some dry fire time to the Glock, but I'm not sure the juice is worth the squeeze.

Out of curiosity, what device did you get to block the striker on the Glock? I have to assume you are one of the lucky few with a Gadget, but if not I am interested.

It's been my experience that skill with the Glock requires more frequent maintenance than other platforms. The Glocks are more sensitive to variations in grip and, to a lesser extent, trigger control.

[ScotchMan]

Just came across this thread, which is definitely sounding familiar.

I appreciate that slow fire isn't the best indication of being the best gun for carry, but I always like to do a "10 shots through the same hole" drill as a warm up before I start with more challenging stuff. If that goes badly, I tend to stop and address that before moving on. I will try some other things with the PPQ. Dot torture at that range did NOT go well with the G19 (as you can imagine), but I could see it being a lot cleaner with the Walther. I'll also try some press outs and other drills that are possible within the limits at my range.

Just for fun, I'm also going to do the same test as above with a DA revolver. I am pretty confident I can shoot a better group with my M65 than what I did with the Glock today.