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Thread: Speed Control

  1. #11
    Site Supporter KevinB's Avatar
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    And folks wonders why DB teaches the way he does.

    John - I think you hit the nail on the head - and why SMU's and the higher level LE teams preach accuracy. However the motor skills - aligning gun, reloads, stoppages etc if those are able to be done "subconciously" - then you have a lot more brain cells able to be devoted to the tactical issues at hand.

    Folks always like to reiterate outrunning your headlights - and what is true in driving, is super true when trying to problem solve a "dynamic or potentially dynamic encounter".

    You can sim these events with well scripted FoF - or FATS stuff (or if you have the live fire video stuff) and it's very easy to see folks shooting faster than they can process, and making misses, or bad shoots. The best methods are (IMHO) done with video on video - with time to draw, time of shots, results of shots etc all recorded and analysed.
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  2. #12
    Very Pro Dentist Chuck Haggard's Avatar
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    Paul Howe talks about this stuff as well in his book. Making the correct decision is the tough part, and takes the most time, IMHO
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  3. #13
    Leopard Printer Mr_White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Hearne View Post
    The speed that you can shoot is limited by the speed that you can form decisions via proper analysis.
    Yes. And the speed that you can shoot is also limited by how fast you can fire accurately, subsequent to making that decision. Training to have a high ceiling of speed allows one to back off to comfort zone/guaranteed/on demand but still be faster than others when it comes to the physical motions themselves, which are, as you correctly note, only enabled by the decisionmaking.

    And confidence in gunhandling and shooting may help allow 'emotional headroom', so to speak, to avoid shortcutting or short-shrifting the critical decisionmaking process that comes first. I think there are a lot of people who aren't straightened out on say, very efficiently engaging from a vision-unobstructed ready position, and then block their vision with the gun trying to get ahead on the technical part, which undermines the decisionmaking that has to come first.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Hearne View Post
    It is possible for the well-developed shooter to be able to shoot faster than one may need to properly analyze the situation.
    It's also possible for a person who emphasizes decisionmaking and control in shooting to make the same mistake. The simulator (MILO or something) scenario you related a while back where you made a proper decision to shoot but didn't execute correctly comes to mind (Bill Drilled a target too difficult for you to do that, and tossed a miss.) Your decisionmaking was obviously good. I think that would be aided by technical practice with a variety of shooting problems so that you can shoot correctly and efficiently for the problem at hand. To a major point of the original post of this thread, that means practicing to shoot the sights and use visual patience in doing so. It does not mean to practice trying to be fast or trying to be slow, specifically. Those are byproducts of a correct technical process.

    Since you were there, did anyone shoot without penalty at the Rangemaster match? Honest question. Do you know if anyone did? Decisionmaking wasn't even part of the equation in that match, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Hearne View Post
    I'm not saying not to continually refine your motor skills. The brain loves recency when it comes to picking which motor program to run. But, the longer I study this stuff, the more I believe that you reach a point of diminishing returns more quickly with speed than accuracy.
    Skill development is not ultimately about speed. Nor is it ultimately about accuracy. A person can learn to shoot/gunhandle almost as quickly as they can, in a relatively modest amount of time training and practicing. A person can also learn to shoot almost as accurately as they can, in a relatively modest amount of time training and practicing. The refinement from there is to learn to maintain a very strong combination of a person's available accuracy, at speed, and further, execute at that level with consistency.

    The internet is a hell of a thing though, isn't it? If you talk about and emphasize decisionmaking, it can read like you are dismissing technical skills (even if you say otherwise.) If I talk about and emphasize technical skill, it can read like I am dismissing decisionmaking (even if I say otherwise.) I don't think either is actually the case. Let's sing Kumbaya next
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  4. #14
    Very Pro Dentist Chuck Haggard's Avatar
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    I put a number of rounds into the neck on the paper targets at the RM competition, unfortunately that's exactly where I was aiming, forgot they were suing the target with the box inside the "milk bottle".

    The scenario event was a two rounds COF for me.


    Agreed that better shooters, combined with better processing, means one can be faster. I note less skilled shooters often know it, and try to get an edge be sneaking the gun up, or getting a finger onto the trigger. This can lead to very bad things happening.
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  5. #15
    Leopard Printer Mr_White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Haggard View Post
    less skilled shooters often know it, and try to get an edge be sneaking the gun up, or getting a finger onto the trigger. This can lead to very bad things happening.
    That is a giant problem to overcome in training new (defensive) shooters. Every time, it is like I destroyed their minds and told them up was down and night was day, but it is fact. Before you can shoot, you gotta decide to shoot. Before you can decide to shoot, you need to see something that tells you it is time to shoot. In order to make that decision as efficiently and correctly as possible, vision must be UNOBSTRUCTED, with gun out of face and eyes and mind on evaluation until the decision is made. Then, and only then, it's time for the sights and trigger.

    The nagging question I have, is how much the above is responsible for the trigger finger violations out in the world among people who are not straightened out on that necessary process. My suspicion is that the answer is, a LOT.
    Technical excellence supports tactical preparedness
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  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by John Hearne View Post

    I remember in my Uncle Scotty class, he related their experiences bringing outside, competition based instructors in to teach. When the high-speed guy was taken to the door of the shoot house - they'd ask questions like: how many bad guys? how many good guys? etc. They'd respond - we don't know. Once the high-speed guys had to run the full analysis process they were no faster than the SWAT guys who shot "slower."

    Years ago, we ran an IDPA scenario in which you started with your back turned to four targets. One of the targets was a no-shoot and it was randomly changed with each shooter running the stage three times. Suddenly, the performance difference between the good shooters and the bad shooters really became less pronounced. The faster shooting guys were still faster but the difference was markedly reduced.
    I removed the parts I agree with completely.

    As for the rest, my experience has been different. Good tac guys ask the same questions before every hit, or they aren't good tac guys. Search warrants, arrest warrants and hostage rescue all get those questions asked.

    I have also not found tac scenarios to markedly change who the obviously better shooters are. Raw speed may be less distinguishable, (though often not) but speed of accurate hits, especially on the move, has always stood out to me. Having done this with the best tac guys on the planet, I feel confident in my experience, and my speed. A lot of factors go into how fast you can process info and make correct decisions, and that is critical. Once the decision is made though, fast accurate hits are more noticeable among the best shooters.

    BTW, I've also done this with what I might politely term "less than the best tac guys on the planet." If a SWAT team was coming to save my family, I'd want to know which team before agreeing to it. SWAT is not SWAT all the time, everywhere.

  7. #17
    Site Supporter Chance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Haggard View Post
    Paul Howe talks about this stuff as well in his book.
    Quote Originally Posted by John Hearne View Post
    It is possible for the well-developed shooter to be able to shoot faster than one may need to properly analyze the situation.
    "I teach a five-point discrimination process that involves looking at the 'whole person' first and then the hands. Why? Routinely we are being taught to shoot faster than we can think. The use of the mechanical safety adds one more step before taking a human life. This is important because I have many officers who look at hands first and then go to center mass and let the round fly, only to look at the whole picture a split second later, finding it was a friendly officer. In high stress situations, the safety can become a lifesaver." - Howe in an article here.
    "Trying is the first step toward irritating those around you who know better." - @angry_prof

  8. #18
    Site Supporter John Hearne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_White View Post
    Skill development is not ultimately about speed. Nor is it ultimately about accuracy. A person can learn to shoot/gunhandle almost as quickly as they can, in a relatively modest amount of time training and practicing. A person can also learn to shoot almost as accurately as they can, in a relatively modest amount of time training and practicing. The refinement from there is to learn to maintain a very strong combination of a person's available accuracy, at speed, and further, execute at that level with consistency.

    The internet is a hell of a thing though, isn't it? If you talk about and emphasize decisionmaking, it can read like you are dismissing technical skills (even if you say otherwise.) If I talk about and emphasize technical skill, it can read like I am dismissing decisionmaking (even if I say otherwise.) I don't think either is actually the case. Let's sing Kumbaya next
    I hate to sound curmudgeonly but.... Fifteen years ago, I had a lot of free time and a fairly generous ammunition budget. That is simply no longer the case and my training resources are now fairly scarce and I'm trying to figure out how to maximize them.

    Jeff Cooper had a great concept called PII or "Preoccupation with Inconsequential Increments." This was the concept that "This peculiarity lies in attributing importance to measurable deviations so small as to be meaningless." I'm always trying to figure out what is a PII in training and what offers a consequential improvement. To this end, I've been working on the non-shooting areas of improvement - grip strength, eye exercises, etc. - activities that I can perform while driving to and from work and don't "cost" anything.

    My whole goal is to figure out how to maximize my likely performance in a real world fight (both on and off duty) within the resource constraints that confront me. I am not saying that shooting better (faster and more accurately) is bad, simply that I don't have the resources to reach my theoretical obtainable maximum. (I've had concealed draw stroke times hovering around 1.10 but could not maintain that long term with the resources I had)

    It is thus important to me to know what to do next. If I can draw and hit an 8" circle at 7 yards in 1.5-1.7 seconds, is it the best use of my resources to reduce that time or to reduce the target size. One emphasizes speed and the other accuracy, and the perfect world answer is both but I'm not gonna do both.

    Again, I'm not saying better isn't better, just that I need to figure out how best to spend finite resources.
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  9. #19

  10. #20
    Interesting discussion. I am going to put this in terms of bears.

    Some days it is most important to be accurate. Some days it is most important to be fast. Some days it is most important to be carrying the right equipment. Some days it is most important to be good at understanding bears and assessing the environment. Some days it is most important to be lucky. Some days you are going to get hurt, regardless of your speed, accuracy, equipment and experience. It is really hard to know in advance, which skill is going to be most important in terms of not getting hurt.

    I have no quarrel in how others decide for themselves. Me, I just try to do the best I can at each of the things (speed, accuracy, equipment, experience) I can control, while hoping for luck to help with the things I can't control.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

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