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Thread: Verbal aggression at gunpoint

  1. #51
    Very Pro Dentist Chuck Haggard's Avatar
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    Some of my experience has been that bad guys often do fear regular folks, if they appear resolute, than they do cops, although they sometimes seem to fear rookie cops as well, both with the idea that the person might shoot them earlier than a seasoned cop might.

    I have seen way too many bad guys challenge a cop with "You can't shoot me" given in a tone of voice like "Dude, you are off sides" or whatever.
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  2. #52
    Very Pro Dentist Chuck Haggard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cclaxton View Post
    Do armed citizens have more, the same, or less discretion to shoot the guy with the pipe wrench than a sworn police officer? If the situation was that he was moving towards a family member with a pipe wrench, let's say, does armed civilian have the same restraint obligations?
    Cody
    Deadly force is deadly force. What Todd said basically.
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  3. #53
    Member 23JAZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCinVA View Post
    So here's a question I have for the people who have some level of experience with this sort of thing:

    Knowing that the verbal interaction is only 1 part of a much larger picture that a bad guy assesses when sizing up what kind of threat you are, what sort of language would be sensible to use to try and convince a guy who is unimpressed by the muzzle of your gun?

    As an example, I did Craig's ELL at the Conference and when interacting with the male role player I stated "If you touch that gun I will fucking kill you." as I maneuvered away from the side of his body where the gun was. The goal was to leave him with no doubt that I had every intention to shoot him in the face the instant he tried to pick up that pistol.

    Craig was the outside observer so he could tell you if my recollection is accurate or not, but it seemed to me like the role player actually paused for a second and I thought my attempt at verbal intimidation was going to work. After the "pause" (and that may have just been adrenaline-induced distortion of time in my own head) he did move for the gun and I put three sims rounds in his facemask.

    Was this too much, just right, or not enough? My goal was to convince this guy that screwing with me would result in certain death and so what came out of my mouth was a guarantee of certain death and it seemed for a second there that he got the point. An external observer, however, might have heard me tell a guy on his knees that I was going to fucking kill him and then shoot him in the face...which I'm guessing wouldn't give investigators a warm fuzzy.

    I know of real life incidents where that sort of verbalization (at least two occasions where almost the exact same sentence I threw out there was used) did a good enough job of convincing the bad guy that death was certain for him to stop hostile actions. I also know that at least one of the people who said something along those lines got questioned about it in court and matter-of-factly explained that he had every intention of shooting the drug dealer the instant he became a threat to the officer making the statement and his teammates in the hopes that the bad guy would understand certain doom and refrain from being an idiot and getting himself killed.

    Looking at the whole of the situation, what's advisable to say in that kind of moment? What's aggressive enough to make the bad guy understand his mortality without being so aggressive that you're explaining it to investigators in the aftermath?
    I'm no expert by any means but I would say that was a very appropriate response. If your at the point your gun is drawn then you've already concluded you would be legally ok to shoot. So why not error on the side of caution and shoot. I'm sure you'd always question what if I gave one more command maybe he would of listened. But maybe he would of shot? I figure if my gun is drawn I've assesed the situation to be legally justifiable to kill the person at the point if the person isn't listening to my commands he/she is getting shot dead. I've got kids and a wife to get home to.
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay23 View Post
    If your at the point your gun is drawn then you've already concluded you would be legally ok to shoot. So why not error on the side of caution and shoot. I'm sure you'd always question what if I gave one more command maybe he would of listened. But maybe he would of shot? I figure if my gun is drawn I've assesed the situation to be legally justifiable to kill the person at the point if the person isn't listening to my commands he/she is getting shot dead. I've got kids and a wife to get home to.
    Nope. This is a dangerous misconception.

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by TR675 View Post
    Nope. This is a dangerous misconception.
    This.

  6. #56
    Member 23JAZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TR675 View Post
    Nope. This is a dangerous misconception.
    Can you elabarate please.
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  7. #57

    Verbal aggression at gunpoint

    Quote Originally Posted by cclaxton View Post
    Do armed citizens have more, the same, or less discretion to shoot the guy with the pipe wrench than a sworn police officer? If the situation was that he was moving towards a family member with a pipe wrench, let's say, does armed civilian have the same restraint obligations?
    Cody
    Not Chuck (obviously), but,
    Tom Givens puts it very succinctly in his "immediate defense of life" criteria. For contact weapons, distance/proximity will obviously play a large part in the decision making process, as will the signs of intent displayed by the threat. When circumstances allow, giving a warning and commands prior to using force is generally a good thing, whether you're a cop or private citizen.

    The short answer is that using deadly force to protect another from reasonably perceived great bodily harm or death is okay for cop and private citizen alike. It's the "reasonable" that sometimes get folks in trouble, on both sides of the badge.

    Dan

    Eta: sorry, slow on the keyboard.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay23 View Post
    Can you elabarate please.
    No, I really can't (won't, whatever), other than to say there are a thousand instances a day of people pointing guns at other people without shooting them and thereby resolving their problem. I can come up with a thousand scenarios where I might pull a gun, even point it at someone, etc. without pulling the trigger. If you are of the mindset that "draw = shoot" you may find yourself in a very untenable legal pickle one of these days. I suggest seeking out some good training from a reputable trainer with law enforcement experience who can help guide your thoughts on the decision making process. I did that and I am better off for it.

    Southnarc, Nyeti, Tom Givens and Claude Werner are four people right off the top of my head whose thoughts on this and other topics bear serious consideration.

  9. #59
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    One thing from the video reminded me of a John Holschen point in an Insights class. He said that in such an incident if the bad person did not comply, the supposed good person with the gun had a tendency to approach the bad person yelling the commands even louders. He pointed out that you had the gun, distance is your friend and you should increasing distance away while giving the commands, warnings or whatever. Why get closer?

    The woman at times was following the guy. Why, he was retreating at times? He might have had a subconscious view of a personal space and a zone of dominance. She kept on infringing on him and challenging him. I don't know what was in back of her but moving that way might have been a better plan.

    Also, I really couldn't see it. Did the officer let her retrieve her gun? That's all 2nd Amend. nice but is that such a great idea when passions are high?

    PS - the FOF I've done at KRtraining and at the old NTI was quite ambiguous at times. Some were specifically designed to talk you way out of a ranting dude. Just getting into a shootout wasn't valued.

  10. #60
    Member 23JAZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TR675 View Post
    No, I really can't (won't, whatever), other than to say there are a thousand instances a day of people pointing guns at other people without shooting them and thereby resolving their problem. I can come up with a thousand scenarios where I might pull a gun, even point it at someone, etc. without pulling the trigger. If you are of the mindset that "draw = shoot" you may find yourself in a very untenable legal pickle one of these days. I suggest seeking out some good training from a reputable trainer with law enforcement experience who can help guide your thoughts on the decision making process. I did that and I am better off for it.

    Southnarc, Nyeti, Tom Givens and Claude Werner are four people right off the top of my head whose thoughts on this and other topics bear serious consideration.
    Thank you very much. I plan on doing just that this summer.
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