Verbal aggression at gunpoint

[RoyGBiv]

I'm sure I'm not alone in this, but I regularly encounter people who have been through some level of training who react as if every stranger that approaches them is doing so solely for the purposes of cutting their head off and putting it on a stick. I'm forced to wonder if bad training is turning otherwise sane people into panicky dum-dums who react wholly inappropriately to any stimulus.

Maybe that's a conversation for a different thread.

I think some (many) people who carry a gun don't sufficiently prepare their mindset for having to use it. I've seen the toughest guy I knew turn tail and run when he faced having to take an action that could have cost him his life if it went sideways (not gun or LE related).

Lots of folks out there carrying guns that have not made the mental decisions and defined their own "red lines", to shoot if necessary. That kind of uncertainty is what I believe drives folks to overreact to non-threats. They hung themselves out on the branch too far and they're in fear of having to take an action for which they are not sufficiently trained (MUC) or mentally prepared.

Disclaimer: I'm speaking from observation and self evaluation, not from any substantial experience.

[LittleLebowski]

Excellent thread. Any follow up on what happened in the wake of the video in the first post?

[cclaxton]

As in how many instructors are out there making a deliberate effort to familiarize their students with the level of ambiguity that they are likely to encounter in real life.

For me, working Krav Maga has been an enormous help. It has helped me to manage distance, verbalize aggressively, and adds in unpredictability (such as multiple attackers, unexpectedly strong opponents, sticks, knives, etc.). I also found Paul Sharp's Handgun Retention class very useful.

All I can ask of myself is to be minimally prepared for a variety of types of threats. Having the confidence that I CAN do what is necessary is a game-changer for me. Now I have a variety of tools.

Role playing Force on Force seems like the next logical step. Karl Rehn's and Caleb Causeys class at Rangemaster is perhaps a good example. I need to do a lot more of that kind of thing.
Cody

[Robinson]

This is a really good thread -- lots of good discussion for me to learn from.

The verbalization thing plus making good on-the-spot judgements seem like crucial elements to me. In twenty-plus years of martial arts training I've had opportunities to work those elements to a degree but introduction of weapons changes some aspects in significant ways.

[Dagga Boy]

One of the things that we can learn from all those screwed up cops is that they deal with this very regularly. I always love the OC folks with the idea that seeing them with a gun will get criminals afraid.....yeah right. I openly carried a gun, along with a badge that empowered me to not only carry the gun, but to take away a persons freedom. Crooks did not give a rat's ass.
The problem with many LE folks is that they get into a loop of doing the same thing over and over with no compliance. Yelling louder or using profanity doesn't help. It usually hurts. Same with threats you can't act on. When you tell some idiot that you are going to shoot them ( or my favorites like racking the shotgun or using a laser), and the guy looks at you and says "go ahead", you are screwed. It is what I call "Jesus syndrome". That dude feels invincible at that point and you won't or can't do it. The solutions are not easy. It is neat to type on the net about "what I would do", but a whole different animal actually doing it. Keep in mind, the bad guy often is more experienced than you in these situations.
I don't have a magic thing I can type as there is no textbook solution. Kind of an interesting observation...many of the folks I worked with who had been in successful in policy righteous shootings, tended to be in several. Once they have the experience of working through the solutions,they tended to be far less forgiving once lethal force became a legitimate option after that.

[Chuck Haggard]

Verbal Judo teaches that sometimes you have to recode and resend the message if the recipient hasn't gotten it clearly the first time.

I once had a dude who was carrying a very big pipe wrench at gunpoint just before he was going to whack one of my officers from behind. "Drop the wrench" was yelled a couple of times, then "Drop the wrench or Ii'll shoot you in the fucking head". He got the message after I recoded it.

Bad guys will almost instinctively (I hate that word in context, but you know what I mean) if you are bluffing, or not willing to follow through.





I do counsel to avoid unnecessary foul language, it can look very bad in court. Even worse are insults, or anything racial. Get that shit out of your head right now.

[cclaxton]

I once had a dude who was carrying a very big pipe wrench at gunpoint just before he was going to whack one of my officers from behind. "Drop the wrench" was yelled a couple of times, then "Drop the wrench or Ii'll shoot you in the fucking head". He got the message after I recoded it.

Bad guys will almost instinctively (I hate that word in context, but you know what I mean) if you are bluffing, or not willing to follow through.

Do armed citizens have more, the same, or less discretion to shoot the guy with the pipe wrench than a sworn police officer? If the situation was that he was moving towards a family member with a pipe wrench, let's say, does armed civilian have the same restraint obligations?
Cody

[jlw]

There is an old joke about a standoff with a bunch of officers yelling at a guy to "drop the gun" only to be ignored. Two old salts then arrived on scene. One of them said once to drop the gun, and the guy complied and surrendered.

When asked why he complied with that officer after having ignored all of the others, the bad guy said, "Because when that one guy said to drop the gun, the other guy with him stuck his fingers in his ears."

[SLG]

As in how many instructors are out there making a deliberate effort to familiarize their students with the level of ambiguity that they are likely to encounter in real life.

Gotcha. No idea. My guess though is that not many are. (Based partially on comments from you and Jay).


Though we like to make fun of institutional training, this is an area where coming from a large PD can really help, IMO. The guys who taught me may not have known much about fast draws, but they knew how to interact with skells.

[ToddG]

I once had a dude who was carrying a very big pipe wrench at gunpoint just before he was going to whack one of my officers from behind. "Drop the wrench" was yelled a couple of times, then "Drop the wrench or Ii'll shoot you in the fucking head". He got the message after I recoded it.

First time I ever did Sims was as a role player for DEA at their academy. Once the real arresting began, the contact officer did all the work and all the talking. Except the cover officer always communicated one thing, in exactly the same way so presumably it was specific training: "I can and will shoot you." Not "if you don't comply" or "if you move" or any of that. It was just a simple statement that conveyed the authority, ability, and willingness to make the Loud Noise.

If the situation was that he was moving towards a family member with a pipe wrench, let's say, does armed civilian have the same restraint obligations?

I'm unaware of any jurisdiction in the United States that would prevent either a LEO or private citizen from immediately shooting such a person (presuming there was evidence of intent on the part of the wrench-wielder that he was about to cause harm rather than fix a toilet).

While I think it would be very difficult to gather meaningful data, I wonder if the average BG would be more intimidated by a private citizen who appeared competent with a gun than a LEO. The BG knows LEOs need to follow lots of rules when it comes to UOF stuff. As a private citizen, one has far fewer layers of checklists (no department policy, probably fewer force options, and candidly far less training on when he shouldn't shoot). Sort of a "I'm not a cop, I don't have to follow all those rules" kind of thing. I'm not suggesting I know for sure one way or the other, just that it would be interesting to find out given what we know about typical BG prey selection, etc.

How a cop role player or student role player reacts to those differences isn't really meaningful because their mindset isn't the same as someone who's been held at gunpoint by cops a bunch of times but has probably never had a private citizen kill him a time or two.