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Thread: Verbal aggression at gunpoint

  1. #21
    Site Supporter Jay Cunningham's Avatar
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    I've seen "good guys" in FoF freak out and murder people because they "didn't comply"... Don't get me wrong, everyone is super amped-up and hyper vigilant when they are new to it. The debrief is usually where it gets interesting.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Cunningham View Post
    I've seen numerous examples of it. Every human interaction is met with I CAN'T HELP YOU or GET BACK, regardless of circumstances or context. I've been subjected to this kind of training as well - if you haven't, you are fortunate.

    Edited to add: of course the above may be a wholly appropriate response... but if that's the only response you've got loaded in, then you rapidly cut off options. Getting back to the original topic, I've seen countless cases of DROP YOUR FUCKING WEAPON over and over and over again... but what happens if the person simply doesn't feel like dropping their weapon? Little bit of a Mexican stand-off thing usually happens.
    I've seen that training as well, but I guess I don't consider it sociopathic when done correctly. Over and over is pretty much never correct, IMO.

    As for the won't drop the weapon? Then it's time to shoot.

  3. #23
    We are diminished
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    This is why I like having real world penalties for committing "crimes" in FOF. I've told students they had to bring $100 in cash with them. Before we start running scenarios, we go through the Chinese menu of crimes you can commit and penalties for same. Brandishing? Costs you $5 of your money. Assault? $10. Murder? $20. And so on. Even though the actual sums tend to be small, it creates an emotional incentive against going all cowboys-and-indians.

    Also sprinkle in scenarios where there is no real threat but it's easy to over react (my personal favorite was simply having a role player walk up and touch your arm trying to read your watch). As soon as a student draws his gun in reaction to, "Pardon me, do you have any Grey Poupon?" it becomes pretty clear that there is more to the hammer class than just nails.

    Do this enough and you'll literally start to drive students in the other direction -- which I think is more realistic for the average guy out in the wild -- and he'll let things escalate much too far before reacting with appropriate (deadly) force.

    And at the end of the day there are just some folks who will go catatonic and some folks who will go cyclic. I had a student in a class back when I was still working at the NRA who, during a pretty simple FOF burglary scenario completely flipped out when one of the role players showed a gun. The student shot the RP with the gun, then the RP without a gun, then the guy who was videotaping the scenario (wearing a bright orange "OUT OF ROLE" vest), then tried to shoot me as the instructor also in a bright orange vest but he was out of ammo by then. Next another role player dressed as a cop with a giant (like 6") tin foil badge on his chest walked through the front door and the student spun and tried to shoot him with the empty gun, too.

  4. #24
    Site Supporter Jay Cunningham's Avatar
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    Wow, excellent post Todd.

  5. #25
    Member Gadfly's Avatar
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    Not really about force on force, but about how people react to a gun pointed at them...

    Had a guy yelling "I don't care if you're a cop, I'm not scared of you. I will kick your ass."

    I tell him to back up or he will get OC sprayed. He says "you're gonna spray me? I got something for your ass." He picked up a bat. He says "I'm gonna split your head open." I draw my gun and yell "drop it, get back". He looks me right in the eye and says "you'd better kill me, because I'm gonna kill you"...

    My butt puckered because I have a gun, and he is supposed to give up. He did not seem to give a shit that he was out matched. I threw me off my game for a few seconds. I had pointed my gun at hundreds of folks, and this was the first guy that just seemed to totally not give a s--t. It was a rude, cold, hard awakening. Turns out the kid is bi-polar and off his meds, but I did not know that until later. Crazy folks just don't care.

    I had tree that I kept between us, and I ended up emptying the OC can on him as we danced around the tree. It did the trick. He took off on foot to find a sink to stick his head into.

    (More background to that story that is not relavent to this thread... Kid was charged with attempt capital murder of a peace officer, which was reduced to agg assault w deadly weapon (because I was off duty), which was plead down to "deadly conduct". Got to love our local DA...)
    “A gun is a tool, Marian; no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that.” - Shane

  6. #26
    As to the reactions with blades, it is hard to get through life without getting cut on something; so, it is a real sensation and thus a fear for people. Plus, humans have been stabbing/cutting/impaling each other with sharp objects much longer than they have been shooting each other. I'm sure John probably has a PowerPoint slide on it...

    People often don't actually believe they will be shot, and, I don't know a cop that doesn't have at least a peripheral story about a perp daring an officer to shoot.

    Funny thing though, in my first hand experience, I have yet to see a perp that didn't believe the k9 would bite them.
    I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.

  7. #27
    We are diminished
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    Gadfly -- I don't know how you guys manage such restraint. If someone picked up a baseball bat, specifically stated his intent to kill me with it, and was anywhere nearly close enough that he could accomplish it I'd just shoot him on the spot.

  8. #28
    Very Pro Dentist Chuck Haggard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToddG View Post
    Gadfly -- I don't know how you guys manage such restraint. If someone picked up a baseball bat, specifically stated his intent to kill me with it, and was anywhere nearly close enough that he could accomplish it I'd just shoot him on the spot.
    ^This^
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  9. #29
    Member Gadfly's Avatar
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    Todd, My restraint came from the fact the turd in question is my neighbors kid (20 or 21 at the time) from a few houses down... He was having a "domestic dispute" in his front yard and it was loud enough it got my attention. The parents locked the kid out and he had the bat and was beating on the front door, and screaming he was going to break down the door. I distinctly thought, "I'm going to have to kill this kid in front of all of my neighbors who came out to gawk..."

    We're i out on duty somewhere away from home, I think it would have played far differently.

    I had a debrief panel, and got my ass chewed. "You were close enough to spray him? What is that, like 10 feet? Why the f--- did you let him close that distance when you had no back up? What if you tripped while back peddling? Why the hell did you use less lethal OC in a deadly force situation? ". I could only reply that have to live there, and I wanted to give this turd every chance to back down. After I sprayed I threw the can away. If it did not have an effect, the next step was Glock. His family still flip me the finger every time time I drive past. They blame me for the felony arrest record. One of my neighbors said the were out $25k in lost bail money and attorney fees. But it's not my fault you raised a crazy turd kid.

    If I had stayed in my house, would he have injured or killed his parents with the bat? That was his intent at the start of the conflict...
    “A gun is a tool, Marian; no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that.” - Shane

  10. #30
    Warning, this is a tough video to watch. It shows a person with lots of guns pointed at him being completely irrational, and it also shows an absolutely inept LE response.

    I had an ER nurse in a class. I noticed she kept taking all head shots. Her response when asked why, "'I've seen too many people who have been shot in the chest putting up a fight in the ER." Point taken.

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