Verbal aggression at gunpoint

[MVS]

Anyone have any thoughts on how this topic relates to the shooting in Minnesota?




http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/min...2Up?li=BBnb7Kz

Minn. cop fatally shoots black man during traffic stop, aftermath broadcast on Facebook 1 / 18
The Washington Post



.n.”

The thing that seemed the most odd to me about this deal was how calm the female remained. It was like this was nothing out of the ordinary for her.

[wrmettler]

What needs to be understood here are the differences between Law Enforcement Officers and civilians.

Civilians do NOT have the same rights as LEOs. I doubt you can even restrain someone at gunpoint even after the deadly, immediate and illegal force has ended.

What happens if a guy approaches you with a knife demanding money, you pull your gun, he says "you win", drops his knife, turns around and starts to leave.
Can you restrain him, and if so how.
What if he tells you to shove you gun and continues to walk.

Is the gun a magic wand that will keep all people under your domination and control?

[voodoo_man]

What needs to be understood here are the differences between Law Enforcement Officers and civilians.

Civilians do NOT have the same rights as LEOs. I doubt you can even restrain someone at gunpoint even after the deadly, immediate and illegal force has ended.

What happens if a guy approaches you with a knife demanding money, you pull your gun, he says "you win", drops his knife, turns around and starts to leave.
Can you restrain him, and if so how.
What if he tells you to shove you gun and continues to walk.

Is the gun a magic wand that will keep all people under your domination and control?

You can make a citizen's arrest.

Off-duty LEO's outside their state do it all the time.

Either by meeting the force he uses with greater force to overcome it.

No one other than LEOs and mall-cops carry actual handcuffs, but having a pair of zipties isn't exactly outside the norm for some people (I carry both, because options).

No one says you have to chase him. Let him run away, the threat is over if he drops his knife and runs, call 911, be a good witness and give a good description, then show up to court and make sure that person is prosecuted.

BTW, if you draw your gun, pointing it at a guy with a knife trying to rob you and he has the time to see the gun, process the threat, drop it and run, then you need re-evaluate your personal shoot threshold.

[OnionsAndDragons]

You can make a citizen's arrest.

Off-duty LEO's outside their state do it all the time.

Either by meeting the force he uses with greater force to overcome it.

No one other than LEOs and mall-cops carry actual handcuffs, but having a pair of zipties isn't exactly outside the norm for some people (I carry both, because options).

No one says you have to chase him. Let him run away, the threat is over if he drops his knife and runs, call 911, be a good witness and give a good description, then show up to court and make sure that person is prosecuted.

BTW, if you draw your gun, pointing it at a guy with a knife trying to rob you and he has the time to see the gun, process the threat, drop it and run, then you need re-evaluate your personal shoot threshold.

I'm no LEO; I carry zip ties in my around town bag. The heavy duty construction type, and the restraint type. You never know when werewolves or the right girl might show up. (Not a rape/kidnapping joke, some folks like being tied up)

On the knife subject, it has to be more specific to know if it's an issue of shoot threshold or not, IMO. Some bad guys have to know what a draw stroke looks like and might drop and start bugging before the gun is even presented. Or drop the knife at least. Or maybe sum doode is far enough away that he has just enough time to quit before you finish the press.

I have witnessed at least 2 occasions where accessing, but not drawing, a firearm deterred belligerent street ferals. If a person under 45 reaches for their waistband and clears a garment, they probably aren't going for a holstered cell phone.

I do think it unlikely that it would happen that way in my case, or many others here that have 1sec or so standards they work regularly.

[OnionsAndDragons]

Apologies for the double tap, but it's hard to multi quote on the tablet.

As to Randy's query, I have a question and a personal practice.

Do police in areas where concealed carry is legal get training on dealing with lawful carriers, and how to judge lawful carriers vs unlawful based on actions and demeanor?

This would seem like a prudent thing. Why would someone with an illegal gun divulge that info before it was clear they were going to be searched or arrested?

In my state, informing a contact officer of armed status is not required. I will, however, out of courtesy and a desire for honest communication. I will not say I have a gun or firearm. That seems like a good way to amp up a situation. I always hand the officer my permit with my license and registration. It works fine for me here, may not everywhere. If asked if I'm carrying, I answer, indicate the position and verbalize my intent to keep my hands on the wheel in view unless directed otherwise.

[voodoo_man]

I'm no LEO; I carry zip ties in my around town bag. The heavy duty construction type, and the restraint type. You never know when werewolves or the right girl might show up. (Not a rape/kidnapping joke, some folks like being tied up)

On the knife subject, it has to be more specific to know if it's an issue of shoot threshold or not, IMO. Some bad guys have to know what a draw stroke looks like and might drop and start bugging before the gun is even presented. Or drop the knife at least. Or maybe sum doode is far enough away that he has just enough time to quit before you finish the press.

I have witnessed at least 2 occasions where accessing, but not drawing, a firearm deterred belligerent street ferals. If a person under 45 reaches for their waistband and clears a garment, they probably aren't going for a holstered cell phone.

I do think it unlikely that it would happen that way in my case, or many others here that have 1sec or so standards they work regularly.

Zipties are good, in a bag their role is questionable since they need to be accessed on the spot - people will run away from you. I've considered using the RATS TQ as a impromptu handcuff/restraint as it seems to do the same thing, technically.

Re; draw stroke - I will say that this is a topic that we, as people who practice conceal carrying and shooting often, use our personal filter when referencing. You know what a draw stroke looks like because you've done it and seen people do it often, as have most people here. So most PF members will be able to pick out the beginning of a draw stroke before someone less trained or completely untrained, this does not mean everyone who is doing the same movements will be drawing something, there needs to be more context.

As I've stated before I worked plainclothes for years and during that time I've drawn from concealment dozens upon dozens of times, a few times as a reaction to someone else's movements. I have only seen a handful of "street ferals" even pickup on the draw and only when they actually saw the gun presented they dropped their weapon, stopped drawing whatever they were drawing and/or ran away/froze on the spot. Most people have no idea.

I'd also like to take this time to point out that draw-stroke vs. draw speed vs. one shot time from the draw vs. reaction time vs. reactionary gap are all very subjective to the context. I have personally experienced several instances where I have drawn a firearm, quickly enough, that I have broken past the person in question reactionary gap. Meaning I drew and pointed a gun at someone and they still had to process the fact then react. Average human reaction time can be around .15 to .30 second, so while I doubt I drew faster than .30 I am sure I was close enough to half a second and they may have had a distraction of some sort which gave me the chance to do so. This is optimal.

Apologies for the double tap, but it's hard to multi quote on the tablet.

As to Randy's query, I have a question and a personal practice.

Do police in areas where concealed carry is legal get training on dealing with lawful carriers, and how to judge lawful carriers vs unlawful based on actions and demeanor?

This would seem like a prudent thing. Why would someone with an illegal gun divulge that info before it was clear they were going to be searched or arrested?

In my state, informing a contact officer of armed status is not required. I will, however, out of courtesy and a desire for honest communication. I will not say I have a gun or firearm. That seems like a good way to amp up a situation. I always hand the officer my permit with my license and registration. It works fine for me here, may not everywhere. If asked if I'm carrying, I answer, indicate the position and verbalize my intent to keep my hands on the wheel in view unless directed otherwise.

I will only speak for my PD and experience (as usual) - we got training on CCW legality, permits, how-to investigations and paperwork requirements. The actual actions and demeanor are usually very similar to everyone else who carries, legally or otherwise.

In my experience the only real difference between someone who is carrying legally vs. someone who is carrying illegally is the fact the vast overwhelming majority of illegal carries do not have a holster.

My opinion on the disclosure of ccw is always do it. You remove the unknown variable and give the officer who stopped you for whatever reason an easy understanding of the situation. When I get stopped off duty I do the very same thing I want people to do when I stop them and they are carrying. All windows down, interior lights on, turn off vehicle, place both hands outside the window or both on top of the steering wheel. After the intro - "Officer, I am a *insert your legal status, off duty LEO, FED, CCW holder, tier 0 ninja* and my concealed firearm is *insert carry location*, what would you like me to do?" That's when you listen to the commands and respond moving very slowly. Most officer's won't tell you to remove your firearm (hopefully), I've never done it and I've never been asked to do it, but that doesn't mean there aren't LEO's out there that won't do it. You can always ask them to remove the firearm for you, which is tricky and ill advised, its just better to keep it in place. You can tell them that. Keep your CCW behind your Driver's license so don't have to reach for stuff all around, same with your insurance and registration. When the officer leaves to go back to his vehicle, put both your hands outside the window.

I have never given a CCW permit holder a ticket (not that I write tickets), most guys I work with don't, generally that's a "free pass" for most.

[Painkiller7]

My opinion on the disclosure of ccw is always do it. You remove the unknown variable and give the officer who stopped you for whatever reason an easy understanding of the situation. When I get stopped off duty I do the very same thing I want people to do when I stop them and they are carrying. All windows down, interior lights on, turn off vehicle, place both hands outside the window or both on top of the steering wheel. After the intro - "Officer, I am a *insert your legal status, off duty LEO, FED, CCW holder, tier 0 ninja* and my concealed firearm is *insert carry location*, what would you like me to do?" That's when you listen to the commands and respond moving very slowly. Most officer's won't tell you to remove your firearm (hopefully), I've never done it and I've never been asked to do it, but that doesn't mean there aren't LEO's out there that won't do it. You can always ask them to remove the firearm for you, which is tricky and ill advised, its just better to keep it in place. You can tell them that. Keep your CCW behind your Driver's license so don't have to reach for stuff all around, same with your insurance and registration. When the officer leaves to go back to his vehicle, put both your hands outside the window.

I have never given a CCW permit holder a ticket (not that I write tickets), most guys I work with don't, generally that's a "free pass" for most.

I had an LEO stop me once a couple of years ago. It was later in the night and I, out of courtesy, gave him my CCL. He asked if my weapon was on me, and when told yes, I was instructed to give it to him. He then proceeded to place it on the hood of his car (which is where I was instructed to stand) without ever clearing the firearm. He searched my truck because he had "smelled marijuana". The entire time he was going through my truck, he was alone, with me at the hood of his cruiser, and my loaded G19 on the hood right next to me.

I think that was the one and only time in my life I was literally floored and speechless.

Every other time I've been stopped, which isn't many; I've always notified the Officer out of respect and to eliminate that unknown variable. Aside from that one issue, it's always gone well.

[voodoo_man]

I had an LEO stop me once a couple of years ago. It was later in the night and I, out of courtesy, gave him my CCL. He asked if my weapon was on me, and when told yes, I was instructed to give it to him. He then proceeded to place it on the hood of his car (which is where I was instructed to stand) without ever clearing the firearm. He searched my truck because he had "smelled marijuana". The entire time he was going through my truck, he was alone, with me at the hood of his cruiser, and my loaded G19 on the hood right next to me.

I think that was the one and only time in my life I was literally floored and speechless.

Every other time I've been stopped, which isn't many; I've always notified the Officer out of respect and to eliminate that unknown variable. Aside from that one issue, it's always gone well.

You should have either yelled at him or called for his supervisor and yelled at both of them together.

[OnionsAndDragons]

You should have either yelled at him or called for his supervisor and yelled at both of them together.

This is a little sidebar-ish, but I'm curious.

Do calls to sups tend to have much impact?

I've made a couple positive sup calls for stops that I thought were handled particularly well. I know in my case it was likely noticed because it was the sheriffs dept both times, and ours isn't terribly large. Is it just the sort of thing that varies widely by department or even individual supervisors?

[voodoo_man]

This is a little sidebar-ish, but I'm curious.

Do calls to sups tend to have much impact?

I've made a couple positive sup calls for stops that I thought were handled particularly well. I know in my case it was likely noticed because it was the sheriffs dept both times, and ours isn't terribly large. Is it just the sort of thing that varies widely by department or even individual supervisors?

It really is subjective to the PD.

I always say that if you are really happy write it down and send it directly to the Chief, preferably show up in person and hand the top boss a letter stating what happened with the officers name and badge number. Tell the boss what they did and how happy you are. This will make the best impact possible as they are compelled to meet you and speak with you and they have to follow up with what you gave them, community oriented policing and all that.

If an officer does something derptastic please ask them for a supervisor to come to the location. Being rude will make your complaint disregard fairly quickly, but staying calm is best. When the street supervisor shows up, get their name, rank, badge and HQ phone number so that you can follow up. Then tell them what happened. Some places require the complainant to actually say "I ant to file a formal complaint" some will just self initiate. This is the first and best method of making a critical observation of a street officer. If you show use the commendation process I referred to above for this you may inadvertently get that officer in more trouble than he should be in and/or not have anything done at all.

With that, if you ever have an issue post here or PM me and I'll try to help any way possible. There is a fine line with these things and having been on the receiving end of both of them I know that it really matters which way it's initiated.