Verbal aggression at gunpoint

[HCountyGuy]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=63e_1464729274

Another example of intervention gone wrong.

Just going to quote myself from the "Shooting Incidents in the News" thread:

Granted there were some less-than-ideal decisions made, but I don't think I'd fault the guy for initially confronting the deceased in an effort to get him to leave.

I know such intervention is generally advised against, but I think that's one contributing factor to some of today's societal issues.

I apologize for the possible thread drift/derailment, and if this is better suited to its own thread I'll string one together.

These days we're all about keeping our own butts out of trouble it sometimes leaves others flapping in the wind, so to speak. Granted there was likely no immediate physical threat to the cashier, in spite of the chips lobbed at him. But my opinion is that there comes a point someone has to stand up and let it be known that that kind of behavior isn't tolerated. Yeah, we typically hand it off to the police to handle, after all it's more their job. But what happened to the rest of us helping maintain a societal standard?

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." To many, calling 911 is doing something, but my opinion is that it's a cop out, no pun intended. I'm not suggesting interjecting ourselves into every petty altercation, but at some point there's a necessity for a self-policing society (again, my opinion).

At the risk of potentially insulting some of those far braver than I and who have done far more to help society than I'm likely to accomplish, it's as if our backbones have disappeared because of a fear of a lawsuit or potentially escalating the situation. What ever happened to sticking up for the "little guy"?

/rant off

[SLG]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=63e_1464729274

Another example of intervention gone wrong.

What went wrong? The tactics were not great, but the outcome was ok. Not really an unknown, but a classic MUC, followed by upright slightly entangled shooting, ruled justified.

[BaiHu]

I just have been holding this back for too long: man shot dead after a-salting gas n sip owner.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Robinson]

Man, I have mixed feelings about that video. I guess I can see why the shooting was ruled justified, but if I were in that same position I don't think I would have drawn a weapon. Of course I think the situation was made more complicated due to the fact the shooter was carrying openly, which I don't do. I'm pretty sure I would have gone hands on with the guy in that scene based his type of aggressive actions. Would the judge/jury consider this situation as disparity of force due to the size difference?

I think the conflict in my mind about that video comes from two things: On one hand, I would not have felt very threatened by the guy who was being aggressive so I would feel pretty confident in my ability to defend against him without a weapon. On the other hand, it might not be smart to engage in a physical altercation while carrying a gun -- which could push your response more in that direction. Grey area?

[BaiHu]

Legally justified? Yes. Best practice? No. All else I feel is an "I wasn't there and I probably wouldn't be involved other than driving off while calling 911." The guy didn't get physical until the OC guy stepped in. People are assholes. Some people need a stomping some just need to be ignored.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[HCountyGuy]

In my opinion, the fact the guy was OCing had little bearing on the outcome. Hell, all he did was tell the guy off and try to get a tag number. The deceased was a raging prick who was likely to wind up dead soon anyway based off his willingness to engage a visibly armed individual. I could imagine he'd have fought any officer who showed up to deal with him.

Shooter at least showed considerable restraint in waiting to shoot. Many an average carrier would've started poking holes the instant the deceased got up-close.

[Robinson]

In my opinion, the fact the guy was OCing had little bearing on the outcome. Hell, all he did was tell the guy off and try to get a tag number. The deceased was a raging prick who was likely to wind up dead soon anyway based off his willingness to engage a visibly armed individual. I could imagine he'd have fought any officer who showed up to deal with him.

Shooter at least showed considerable restraint in waiting to shoot. Many an average carrier would've started poking holes the instant the deceased got up-close.

I somewhat disagree though perhaps not strongly. If open carrying, the visible firearm becomes something to protect/retain and practically takes unarmed self defense off the table. Now it may be that the shooter felt he was in great danger from a larger more powerful antagonist, making an armed response justifiable.

[Randy Harris]

The same thing that would usually happen when civilians end up holding people at gunpoint...they either broke into your house , approached you on the street, or you inserted yourself into someone else's problems out in public....Nothing specific. I'm simply asking the question to keep driving the discussion....I already know what I would likely do (or at least what I have done in the past) but I'm curious as to other people's suggestions. I realize that answering blindly to an ill defined problem usually leads to an "aha! You failed" type thing so everyone hesitates to give an answer.....but that is not my intent.

We all know that inserting ourselves into potentially dangerous situations with limited information is less than optimal...yet people still do it. And even if it is a clear cut case of self defense , but the guy drops his weapon...but is not completely compliant, but no longer armed and now running his mouth and now maybe the cell phone videos are starting up....how would you attempt to manage that. Again I'm not trying to "gotcha" anyone. I'm looking for legitimate suggestions from people who are deep thinkers....not the "shoot 'em and drag 'em in the house" crowd.

It could be anything....say you stop at a gas station to hit the restroom and when you walk out of the restroom the cashier is being threatened at knife point. And yes, convenience stores do get robbed at knife point occasionally. There were 2 or 3 instances of this that I know about in my town a couple of years ago. So you take cover (well...concealment...nothing in a convenience store is really cover) and tell him to drop it ....and he does. You then tell him to get on the ground and he does not comply. He just starts talking and telling you that he knows you won't shoot etc etc.....and the 2 other folks in the store start pointing their cell phones running video instead of calling the cops.....now what?

And a local story this morning that appears to be strikingly similar to my hypothetical...and no, I was not the shooter......

http://www.wdef.com/2016/06/30/shoot...e-gas-station/

SHOOTING DURING ARMED ROBBERY AT EAST RIDGE CONVENIENCE STORE
0 Comments for this article
By: Collins Parker Submitted: 06/30/2016 - 7:36am Buy This Video
Kangaroo Shooting
UPDATE: East Ridge Police now say the robbery suspect held up with store with a large, bladed weapon.

He got cash and a large number of cigarettes.

Police say the suspect grabbed the female store clerk, threatened to kill her and forced her to accompany him as he fled.

That’s when a customer arrived, witnessed the robbery, confronted the suspect and then shot him at least once in the torso.

—————————————-

EAST RIDGE, Tenn. (WDEF) – East Ridge police investigate an early morning shooting at the Kangaroo convenience store on Ringgold Road.

Police say it happened during an armed robbery attempt.

Apparently a customer go into a confrontation with the suspected robber.

And the customer shot the robber.

The robbery suspect was taken to the hospital, but we don’t know how serious the injury is just yet.

Police are talking to the customer.

[Peally]

Never agree to be moved. Just going off the news story the result seems pretty dang cut and dry.

[Randy Harris]

Anyone have any thoughts on how this topic relates to the shooting in Minnesota?




http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/min...2Up?li=BBnb7Kz

Minn. cop fatally shoots black man during traffic stop, aftermath broadcast on Facebook 1 / 18
The Washington Post




A Minnesota traffic stop turned deadly Wednesday evening when a police officer opened fire on a black driver and killed him — less than 48 hours after another fatal police shooting in Louisiana.
The confrontation’s bloody aftermath was broadcast live on Facebook by a female passenger in the car.

“He killed my boyfriend,” Diamond “Lavish” Reynolds said in the video posted on her Facebook page.

Philando Castile, 32, died at a Minneapolis hospital, a family member told The Washington Post.

Minnesota Gov. Mark Dayton (D) said Thursday that he has asked the White House for a federal investigation into the shooting. In a statement, Dayton said he spoke with Denis McDonough, the White House chief of staff, to ask that the Justice Department look into the shooting.


FBI Director James B. Comey said he anticipated that the bureau would become involved in the investigation. Comey, testifying before Congress on Thursday, said he was briefed on the shooting and added that he “would expect we’ll be involved.”

The Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension, the state agency investigating the shooting, said Thursday that it was conducting initial interviews with witnesses as well as the officer. Officials did not release the identity of the officer who fired the fatal shots in the encounter with Castile.

As blood soaked through Castile’s shirt Wednesday night, Reynolds said on camera that Castile was legally licensed to carry a firearm and was reaching for his identification when the officer started to shoot.

“He let the officer know that he had a firearm and he was reaching for his wallet and the officer just shot him in his arm,” she said.



Castile moaned and appeared to lose consciousness as the officer shouted expletives in the background in apparent frustration.

“Ma’am, keep your hands where they are,” he yelled at Reynolds. “I told him not to reach for it! I told him to get his hands up.”

“You told him to get his ID, sir, his driver’s license,” Reynolds responded. “Oh my God. Please don’t tell me he’s dead. Please don’t tell me my boyfriend just went like that.”

The incident occurred in Falcon Heights, Minn., a quiet St. Paul suburb that is a few miles from St. Anthony. The St. Anthony Police Department confirmed the driver’s death during a brief news conference Thursday morning but did not identify the officer involved in the shooting or his race.

Castile’s family members and friends said was a “good man” who worked for St. Paul Public Schools.

Reynolds told reporters Thursday morning that she and Castile were on their way home when he was shot. Castile had just gotten a haircut for his upcoming birthday, she said, and then they had gone grocery shopping.

The two were pulled over for a broken tail light.

Reynolds said the officer came to the window and instructed them to put their hands in the air. He then asked to see Castile’s license and registration, which, Reynolds said, Castile kept in a thick wallet in a pants pocket.

“As he’s reaching for his back pocket wallet, he lets the officer know: ‘Officer, I have a firearm on me.’ I begin to yell, ‘But he’s licensed to carry,’ ” Reynolds said. “After that, he [the officer] began to take off shots: ba ba ba ba. ‘Don’t move, don’t move!’ ”

“But how can you not move when you’re reaching for license and registration?” Reynolds said. “It’s either you want my hands in the air or you want my identification.”

Authorities did not provide details about the encounter during two early morning news conferences.

The Justice Department said Thursday that it was “aware of the incident and is assessing the situation.”