Verbal aggression at gunpoint

[Chuck Haggard]

No disagreement. But I don't think that means one should therefore treat all dogs as if they were rabid, which is the difference to me.

I still approach all dogs as having a potential for biting, read their body language, and make friends with them before I reach out to pet them. I am very much a dog person, but I am also a realist.

[ToddG]

I still approach all dogs as having a potential for biting, read their body language, and make friends with them before I reach out to pet them. I am very much a dog person, but I am also a realist.

As someone with a playful dog who will bite if she thinks my wife or I are in danger, I see this as a very smart move. I've invited people over, given them specific instructions on how to meet the dog, and been ignored because "I'm good with dogs." Most of those people have got nipped.

[luckyman]

As someone with a playful dog who will bite if she thinks my wife or I are in danger, I see this as a very smart move. I've invited people over, given them specific instructions on how to meet the dog, and been ignored because "I'm good with dogs." Most of those people have got nipped.

+1

What is so hard about the instruction "please totally ignore my dog for 60 seconds and act nice so he figures out you aren't the enemy, before you try to pet him"? And fer chrissakes, when you meet me trying to unlock and come through our gated community's stupid "funnel of death / chokepoint" pedestrian gate, do you *have* to try to squeeze by in the 6" space between me, my dog and the gate???

And God forbid I lose SA for a second like I did that one time while trying to cross the road, and you come up on my backside and try to pet my dog. (well, admittedly that one was mostly my fault)

[GRV]

Talking about the gun drawn situation where now you are holding an uncooperative unarmed person at gunpoint who now begins to advance on you.

Go hand to hand with me when I already had my gun out is going to get that person shot.
LE has no requirement to retreat.
Everyone has the right to use self defense up to and including deadly force to prevent the loss of their life, grievous bodily harm, or loss of limb/eyesight (or reasonable grounds to assume those issues may occur).
Presuming your where legally okay (state laws blah blah blah) to present the weapon in the first place - any attempt on you and your weapon gives the reasonable person a view that it would be a deadly force attack.

How much patrol time do you have? This is fairly regular in my old place. It all sounds good, but pretty easy way to spend time in federal court. I would also like to know where you are finding these reasonable people. How many unarmed folks have you shot advancing on you with your weapon out in the US? This was fairly regular crap. How about straight up "make me" people? How about simple resistance of an un-searched person who may be armed based on information but not confirmed?

Is there anything in particular y'all'd recommend a civilian do in that situation? Paul Howe likes to say, "The cop who responds might have two decades on the job, or two days on the job." Thusly, in my imagined scenarios, I'm always focused on putting the pistol away as soon as safely possible so that no good guys get over-amped and service the wrong problem.

This is a scenario that I have been bothered by quite a bit. It seems quite possible to end up in, and I have a hard time coming up with very good answers. Advice? If possible, let's avoid arguing over how one gets into such a situation, or just saying "you shouldn't have let it get to that point". You're there. Now what. Given the audience here, let's also assume that we're running AIWB, with all the issues that has with respect to reholstering quickly.

[RoyGBiv]

Talking about the gun drawn situation where now you are holding an uncooperative unarmed person at gunpoint who now begins to advance on you.



This is a scenario that I have been bothered by quite a bit. It seems quite possible to end up in, and I have a hard time coming up with very good answers. Advice? If possible, let's avoid arguing over how one gets into such a situation, or just saying "you shouldn't have let it get to that point". You're there. Now what. Given the audience here, let's also assume that we're running AIWB, with all the issues that has with respect to reholstering quickly.

Like this?

Grapevine police expect to release dashcam footage from fatal shooting

Eberling said Villalpando, who was unarmed, was told to keep his hands out of the vehicle, but instead got out of his car and walked to the front bumper of Clark’s patrol vehicle. He was out of view of the camera when Clark fired two shots after telling Villalpando to get back to his car.

[GRV]

Like this?

Grapevine police expect to release dashcam footage from fatal shooting

Pretty much, although civilian flavored. I'm all for training unarmed self-defense, I'm all for ECQC style training, I'm all for firearms-only focused training. But now say you're in this situation. The response to your drawn weapon is a person who is advancing with a "go ahead and shoot me" attitude. Maybe they've thrown down the knife they had in their hand when you drew, or whatever. They're challenging you. Options:

1) Shoot. Very questionable. Do they still pose a lethal threat? Has the original lethal threat disappeared? Are you justified? Is their advancing on an armed person evidence of lethal threat?

2) Go into unarmed self-defense techniques with gun in hand. Really freaking hairy if you ask me. I think this is a bad idea. If they're close enough that you can kick them, maybe that's a reasonable response, but if they're not, do we really want to let them get any closer?

3) Reholster. Running AIWB, I'm not sure I want to do this. How fast can I safely reholster while remaining ready to engage?

I'm not sure that there's a right answer or even a good answer here, nor a universal answer, but I'd be very interested in hearing experienced folks discuss this issue.

[Peally]

The One-Punch-Murder thread is relevant here

[Gadfly]

In the link to the Grapevine Police shooting, there was a response to an alarm call, followed by a two mile vehicle chase through heavy traffic followed by repeatedly ignoring commands to stay back. I think the officer can articulate a heightened state of danger just from the initial chase. Can a civilian articulate that? That is a good question...

Your ability to stay out of jail post shooting relies quite a bit on your ability to articulate why you felt your life was in danger based on the totality of circumstance. There is not, nor will there ever be, a cut and dry answer that applies to every shooting. Take the same shooting and change one variable and the police or public response will vary greatly.

Crazy homeless person coming at you flailing their arms and babbling, ignoring your commands to stay back. You are 5'5" and 50 years old, he is 6'5" and early 20s... can you articulate fear of an impending attack? Quite possibly. Take the exact same circumstance, but switch the size and age of the participants. Now, the young big strong man shot the poor innocent small 50 year old man instead of just pushing him away... Same exact actions, but perception is changed based on a disparity of force between the suspect and victim.

So asking questions like "can a shoot an unarmed man advancing on me" are far too vague. How many people are around? What is the size/age/gender disparity between the two of you? Are you sick or injured? Do you have a small child with you that you have to carry? What time of day is it? Is it wet and icy, or dry conditions? Are you on the side of the road and could end up in traffic if you try and fist fight? There are a hundred variables that would have to be answered before anyone can say if you can or should shoot...

Not enough info is available to tell if the officer had a clean shoot or not.

[ToddG]

Is their advancing on an armed person evidence of lethal threat?

If the encounter began or became a violent confrontation such that I felt the need to draw my gun,
and if the guy continued to advance on me with the kind of attitude you describe,
and if I reasonably believe he has the physical ability to disarm me or otherwise cause me harm (IOW, he's not a paraplegic or some other internet what-if extreme),
and if I cannot extricate myself (and any loved ones) in a guaranteed safe manner,
then yes, I consider him a lethal threat and shoot.

Then I hire Craig Douglas as my expert witnesses to discuss whether unarmed people within arm's length are dangerous threats or not to someone who has (legally and reasonably) drawn a firearm in self-defense. And watch the prosecution/plaintiff try to find an expert who has seen a fraction as many such incidents from which to draw an alternative conclusion.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

If the encounter began or became a violent confrontation such that I felt the need to draw my gun,
and if the guy continued to advance on me with the kind of attitude you describe,
and if I reasonably believe he has the physical ability to disarm me or otherwise cause me harm (IOW, he's not a paraplegic or some other internet what-if extreme),
and if I cannot extricate myself (and any loved ones) in a guaranteed safe manner,
then yes, I consider him a lethal threat and shoot.

Then I hire Craig Douglas as my expert witnesses to discuss whether unarmed people within arm's length are dangerous threats or not to someone who has (legally and reasonably) drawn a firearm in self-defense. And watch the prosecution/plaintiff try to find an expert who has seen a fraction as many such incidents from which to draw an alternative conclusion.

What this guy said...