C3 carry: An apology.

[JHC]

You just described my neighbor. Vietnam vet, was a cop in the midwest in the 70's and 80's, retired, moved to TX and just recently retired from his second career in the medical field. He's mostly a Trap and skeet shooter. He recently purchased a Glock for CCW but was carrying it C3. When I inquired why, he told me he carried a 1911 C3 in the military and DA revolvers as a cop but after a non-injury AD into his locker with a 9mm off duty gun during his cop days, he wasnt comfortable carring the Glock C1.

Long story short, he traded the Glock in for S&W M-36 and he is good to go for CCW.

PS- The day after I got him to trade in the Glock, he went back to the store and bought a Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 mag which had caught his eye as a 'house gun" !

Smart old dude.

[ToddG]

SA trumps all and a condition white guy with a 1.5 second, on demsnd draw...

Why does everything have to be about race? But in all seriousness, you sum up my opinion pretty succinctly in your post.

I am not a fan of C3 carry for me, UNDER MOST CIRCUMSTANCES.

Nor I, and I don't think I've ever carried that way. But neither am I an average gun owner. There is a reason why so many poorly trained Glock owners (and even some well trained but unpracticed Glock owners) have ADs when they try to disassemble their guns. So the question becomes a simple matter of probabilities:

* What are the odds of having an AD with a C1 gun? (A1)
* What are the odds of having an AD with a C3 gun? (A3)
* What are the odds of needing a first shot at C1 speed? (S1)
* What are the odds of needing a first shot at C3 speed? (S3)

To the extent that (A1-A3) > (S3-S1) then you're better off with a C3 gun. Or in plain english, if you're more likely to AD with a C1 gun than you are to get hurt by carrying in C3, you are better off carrying C3.

For experienced and safe gun handlers, C1 is almost universally better which is why almost everyone who cares enough about shooting to discuss it on the internet thinks C1 is right and C3 is wrong. But it always amazes me when I meet someone who both (1) thinks C1 is the only way to carry but (2) won't go to a public firing range because there are too many unsafe gun handlers. Think about that for a second...

For the record, I think anyone who isn't safe enough to carry C1 or who isn't safe enough to disassemble a Glock needs more training, right now, do not pass GO, do not collect $200. But unfortunately my opinion isn't reality.

[David Armstrong]

I am not a fan of C3 carry for me, UNDER MOST CIRCUMSTANCES.

I do think that David Armstrong and the others have a point, so I apologize for belittling them. I am home sick for a few days and have gone back and reread the entire thread. Whew!

There are very few circumstances where I would carry C3, and they have been discussed already.

My argument against C3 was based on the performance difference, and that may have been the wrong tact.

I completely agree with Nyeti that a revolver may be the correct solution for many people who cannot or will not carry C1.

What it comes down to is that everything is a compromise and you cannot prepare for every possible scenario. That is why we train generally, instead of specifically.

My personal belief (since none of us can predict our next violent encounter), is that raw draw speed is not much of a factor in most defensive shootings. I have a personal example where raw draw speed prevented a shooting, but the BG didn't know if my chamber was loaded or unloaded.

Ultimately, I believe that history, even recent history, shows that you are prepared for most violent weapons encounters carrying C3. In some circumstances you may be MORE prepared carrying C1, in others, maybe less.

SA trumps all and a condition white guy with a 1.5 second, on demsnd draw (fast for most good shooters, IME) will likely fail, compared to the C3 guy who sees it even 1 or 2 seconds in advance. Successful fighters often see it sooner than that. Sometimes I think we put too much emphasis on the hardware, and not enough on the software. The splits that I am most concerned with are in the MUC phase, not the phew phew phew phase.

If a person makes a rational threat assessment and decides to carry C3, I believe that they are better of than the guy who doesn't carry.

Again, I apologize to Mr. Armstrong an the others who tried to get that point across.

Apology noted and accepted with humility. I do not (and did not) take offense at the disagreement posted by many. I did (and do) find the quality of discourse on the issue from some to be totally unworthy of what I expect on this forum and hope everyone will sort of keep that in mind. P-F has developed a good reputation for quality discourse and some posters certainly strayed far afield from that reputation during the exchanges. As for the issue itself, you hit on the key point I and most who support C3 as a viable althernative: "Ultimately, I believe that history, even recent history, shows that you are prepared for most violent weapons encounters carrying C3. In some circumstances you may be MORE prepared carrying C1, in others, maybe less." Thank you.

[JHC]

You do seem pretty interwebz thick skinned.

[Chuck Haggard]

Apology noted and accepted with humility. I do not (and did not) take offense at the disagreement posted by many. I did (and do) find the quality of discourse on the issue from some to be totally unworthy of what I expect on this forum and hope everyone will sort of keep that in mind. P-F has developed a good reputation for quality discourse and some posters certainly strayed far afield from that reputation during the exchanges. As for the issue itself, you hit on the key point I and most who support C3 as a viable althernative: "Ultimately, I believe that history, even recent history, shows that you are prepared for most violent weapons encounters carrying C3. In some circumstances you may be MORE prepared carrying C1, in others, maybe less." Thank you.

David, I think this is the gist of the heartburn.

Many of us feel, I certainly do at any rate, that C3 carry will in certain circumstances, circumstances that are not in any way far-fetched, to leave one completely unprepared to defend one's self. Not arguing that point, just pointing out where I think the real sticking point may be for some of the C1 carry "advocates" in the debate.

I do appreciate your comportment when posting, always nice to be on the internets and not have it devolve into hysterics.

[David Armstrong]

David, I think this is the gist of the heartburn.

Many of us feel, I certainly do at any rate, that C3 carry will in certain circumstances, circumstances that are not in any way far-fetched, to leave one completely unprepared to defend one's self. Not arguing that point, just pointing out where I think the real sticking point may be for some of the C1 carry "advocates" in the debate.

I do appreciate your comportment when posting, always nice to be on the internets and not have it devolve into hysterics.

No problem with that, but as always those circumstances are only one side of the coin, which is where the C3 supporters have the sticking point as you put it. Yes, there are some circumstances where C3 will put one at a disadvantage. But there are also circumstances where C1 will put one at a disadvantage. That seems to be the disconnect for many. Some folks seem to have a lot of difficulty (or perhaps just refuse) in recognizing that because of their background, or their training, or their experience.

[Erik]

There can be only one way.

[Dagga Boy]

No problem with that, but as always those circumstances are only one side of the coin, which is where the C3 supporters have the sticking point as you put it. Yes, there are some circumstances where C3 will put one at a disadvantage. But there are also circumstances where C1 will put one at a disadvantage. That seems to be the disconnect for many. Some folks seem to have a lot of difficulty (or perhaps just refuse) in recognizing that because of their background, or their training, or their experience.

The only time C1 is a disadvantage is if the firearm is being handled in a manner in which established gun handling procedures are not adhered to. I will stick with if you are carrying in this manner, you or your leadership has picked the wrong tool. Keep in mind, this is in regards to carry, storage may be another argument all together that I am sort of agnostic on.

If folks want to justify carrying C3, I am at the point of "whatever". You will never be on any team I am running professionally, and I likely will not be there in your crisis, so again, "whatever".....you made a choice, hope it works out.

[HCM]

There can be only one way.

The Kurgan has spoken! /thread

[David Armstrong]

The only time C1 is a disadvantage is if the firearm is being handled in a manner in which established gun handling procedures are not adhered to.

Which sadly seems to be all too common, given the large number of AD/ND events from C1, even from highly trained and experienced gunhandlers. There are other situtaions which can be discussed, of course, but it seems that has already been done in the other thread so not much need to go over it again.