Glock 19

[Argus]

Thanks. The recoil spring has maybe 2000 rounds on it. Still, I will check that this evening.

[Wondering Beard]

Do those who like the Glock finger grooves desire to add finger grooves to other weapons?

I do, specifically to support the middle finger and have a high grip that doesn't slip.

Since most guns don't have such finger grooves (the Glock's ones are so slim and it seems quite unique in how little they add to frame size), I prefer my non glock guns to have a rather grippy surface.

[Surf]

Hey guys thanks for the input on the finger groove topic. I will admit that my revolvers wore / wear hogues. Pistols, for myself, not so much. I do understand some like finger grooves but the question really was more rhetorical in nature, however I would guess that those who like finger grooves on pistols or want to add them to all pistols might fall into the minority. For the Glock removal of the finger grooves does slim down the grip a good bit especially for those whose fingers fall more on top of the humps or don't fit the grooves nicely, but in conjunction with the lessening of the hump on the backstrap is where you really get positive results for those with issues. This can be those with really large or really small hands / fingers.

I'd love to see actual data on that. 25 inexperienced shooters, 1 hour of basic verbal instruction, fire each gun, 10 rounds, for groups.

I would love to see it also rob. The only anecdotal data that I have to go off of is from mostly LE shooters with a wide range of skills, many who had little to no familiarity with Glock pistols coming off of a 5906. Having gone through 700 Officers in about 8 months, male and female, all shapes and sizes, I will note that I did take the opportunity to do an informal test of this. I noted about a consistent ~40% exhibited a left or low and left (opposite for lefties) push. I personally shot roughly 80% of all the pistols where the shooter had this problem. How many sights needed adjusting? Only 1, besides the 4 other pistols that had sights come loose.

I had the ability to let certain shooters who had these issues fire my modified frame pistol back to back with their factory pistol and took mental notes. It is often not wise to do such testing or inform them of the difference in their performance from one pistol to another. You need to be non specific as to what you are doing because you do not want to instill a lack of confidence in the shooter to their own specifically issued pistol. You must ensure that you fix the issue in the shooter and that they can back that up with their own pistol.

So with shooters who exhibited these issues, I would often wait for them to go empty with no ammo on them, I might ask them to shoot more, but I knew they were empty. Instead of them going to reload, I would just say "here just use my pistol". I could take mental notes and they all supported my thoughts on finger grooves or the backstrap hump and how they might interact with certain shooters. Of course this is not the only testing of my belief on this topic I have done this with several of my own guys, especially a partner with extremely small hands (small like a bulldog) who had the exact opposite side issues. He now has me perform these frame modifications on all his personal Glocks. He can also shoot stock pistols like his issued, back to back with his modified frame versions and his results are the most striking I have witnessed. Dead nuts reliable on the results.

Is this scientific as in controls, test groups and logging of information? No it isn't. Is this going to be the case in every shooter with issues? I have no data on that, but I would say definitely not. Am I convinced enough that it is the underlying issues in more shooters who exhibit the problem? Yes, I am. Could I be wrong? Of course, I am not arrogant enough to think I am always right, which is an affliction that many people suffer from and I would love to see this topic tested further.

[EVP]

Great info as always surf!

I have always wanted to try a slightly reduced glock with finger grooves removed. But I will admit, I have never shot Glocks and had a left bias.

[Surf]

Kevin, for any pistol the shooters grip and trigger finger are big reasons for inconsistencies, particularly the shift or change in pistol orientation due to the movement in the shooter's grip as the trigger finger moves. I have long held the belief that the physical hump on the backstrap of Glock pistol can exacerbate the grip inconsistencies throughout the trigger pull process especially depending on shooter hand sizing. As an example I get way more movement with a Gen3 than with say a Gen4 AND the hump reduced. In other words I believe that the Glock design magnifies the problem for many shooters. Of course trigger finger placement on the rounded and hinged trigger of the Glock also creates problems. As someone I think on this forum stated (GJM perhaps) something along the lines of "the Glock is easy to shoot well, but difficult to shoot great". I agree with this. The Glock, particularly the grip was designed around the average Male (probably Germanic) sized hand. For anyone with something other than that particular average, either too large or too small may exhibit issues on fitment. Fixing that issue is not hard to do.

[Surf]

I inadvertently played around a bit with this topic live fire in a new Gen4 G19 that I did not do a backstrap reduction, only a finger groove removal, initial results were interesting. I will try to post more when I have the time, maybe some of my personal training video logs that I shot when test firing the weapon.

[DocGKR]

I definitely think Surf is onto something here, as it is exactly what we have seen.

Surf--could you post a picture of one of your modified Glocks?

[LSP972]

I don't want to be the fly in the ointment, but…

After messing around with this for a while, I have come to the conclusion that MY pushing shots (slightly, but noticeably) to the left is pretty much due to trigger control- or, more accurately, a lack thereof.

Four pistols involved here:

1. HK45 Compact, bone stock, V2 LEM.

2. HK P30 9mm, V2 LEM, stock except I removed that offending glove trough with Mr. Dremel. With small grip inserts all around, this pistol fits me like it was molded to my hand.

3. Glock 19, with the full-house Bowie Signature custom work (grip reduction, finger groove removal, and full stippling). I did remove that Ghost connector and replace it with a minus OEM connector and green NY1 spring. This grip feels spectacular, especially compared to stock… almost as good as the P30.

4. Sig P229 Scorpion 9mm TDA, bone stock with SRT short trigger (IOW, the short reset mod using a short trigger). This one is really too fat for my hand, mainly due to those really nice G10 stocks; I can barely get the tip of my finger on the trigger with the hammer down. Cocked, in SA, no problem.

The following shooting observations are "up close"; 5-7 yards, from the holster; multiple shot drills (1 shot, two shots, three shots, etc.) The Sig began all with hammer down, for a proper transition. From 25 yards, taking an extra bit of time, I can lay the shots in fine at 25 yards with all of them. What I'm talking about here is fast reaction shooting, from full concealment… kydex IWB at three o'clock, buttoned hawaiian shirt for cover garment.

With the first three pistols- all of which I have been shooting for years, so no claim of unfamiliarity here- I almost always chuck one (or more) of a multi-shot string slightly to the left; not far, but far enough to be annoying. The Sig… ah, the Sig. I failed to mention that the HKs and Glock have "service grade" triggers; not horrible, but you certainly could not call them good. But the Sig… the DA pull is a silky 9.5 pounds- out of the box- and the single action breaks crisply at 2.5 pounds, with hardly any reset distance. Its there, and you can feel it, but man is that a nice trigger on a service piece.

And- you guessed it- I don't pull any shots with that puppy. Apparently, long-term muscle memory can stay with you, because I'm still quick and solid on the DA-to-SA transition, after not having shot a TDA pistol (aside from some playing around with the grandson's Beretta 92) in almost 20 years.

So, no-brainer, you say? Unfortunately, its not that easy. The P229 is simply too bulky and too heavy for my concealed carry tastes, plus I would have to re-train myself to start slinging the slide during reloads again; its a bit disconcerting to hit the decock lever slightly and nothing happens.

But my point here is this; I'm firmly convinced that the Sig's beautiful trigger is why I don't push rounds to the left with it during burst fire. Dunno, I could be wrong; but to me, the evidence is pretty compelling.

.

[JHC]

I inadvertently played around a bit with this topic live fire in a new Gen4 G19 that I did not do a backstrap reduction, only a finger groove removal, initial results were interesting. I will try to post more when I have the time, maybe some of my personal training video logs that I shot when test firing the weapon.

Am I remembering correctly that you may have posted on M4C some time back about heating the polymer grip and hand shaping it?

[Wondering Beard]

Kevin, for any pistol the shooters grip and trigger finger are big reasons for inconsistencies, particularly the shift or change in pistol orientation due to the movement in the shooter's grip as the trigger finger moves.

That's why I like the finger grooves on the Glock, especially the G19 size. they lock my hand tight (quite tight even) and high up on the gun. I found this out when I bought a gen3 G23 and compared it, at the range with my gen2 G23, oh so many years ago. The thing that always bothered me was that, during shooting, I always felt my shooting hand middle finger slide ever so slightly down; now I'm not sure how much, if at all it impacted my shooting (I didn't keep track of group size or times and i was shooting weaver at the time too) but the finger groove holding my middle finger up and thus my whole hand high up the gun felt so much better in terms of control.

I have long held the belief that the physical hump on the backstrap of Glock pistol can exacerbate the grip inconsistencies throughout the trigger pull process especially depending on shooter hand sizing. .

That makes sense (I really dislike the hump on the G26/27 and G30 pistols as it pulls my hand down, especially in WHO shooting), though by the same token it could help some people because their hands happen to fit with that hump.