Appropriate programming

[Tom Givens]

Who isn't using sights?

You must not get around to other, less technically oriented gun forums. (Not meant as an insult, just a statement.) Every damn day there are dozens of posts like this one, from a guy who posts on several forums:

"Col Applegate had a simple formula.
80% of your practice should be with close range ( 0-12 feet) point shooting.
The other 20% can be anything else that you want to do.
While it is true that there is no shortage of people telling us how to train ( especially those who charge money for their teaching services) it is up to each of us to decide just whom we are to believe and emulate."

[Dagga Boy]

Who isn't using sights?

People being taught to look at something else.

[Tamara]

Who isn't using sights?

This dude.

[orionz06]

You must not get around to other, less technically oriented gun forums. (Not meant as an insult, just a statement.) Every damn day there are dozens of posts like this one, from a guy who posts on several forums:

"Col Applegate had a simple formula.
80% of your practice should be with close range ( 0-12 feet) point shooting.
The other 20% can be anything else that you want to do.
While it is true that there is no shortage of people telling us how to train ( especially those who charge money for their teaching services) it is up to each of us to decide just whom we are to believe and emulate."

I generally avoid those forums. I was under the impression people were still talking about someone in particular.


But the point shooting comment is interesting, most likely better suited for another thread.


I would also assume that people like Tamara mentioned are excluded from this topic.

[JHC]

This dude.

THAT is the PS fellow from the 1st Warrior Talk symposium in Memphis. BTW he still owes me for the tooth paste, breadth mints and disposable camera I went out and fetched him from the hotel before day 1. Each time I offered him the receipt that weekend his wallet was elsewhere. After the 2nd or 3rd try I decided to own it. His dudes couldn't hit shit.

"Half hip on the run."

[Tamara]

But the point shooting comment is interesting, most likely better suited for another thread.

You are correct. It was pretty specifically stated back on Page One:

It's not a point shooting versus sighted fire thread and that's not really where I want this to go.

And yet a bunch of people seem determined to mow these guys down:

[Malamute]

This dude.

Oh the h̶u̶m̶a̶n̶i̶t̶y̶!̶ retardery!

I've had the judgement failure to get involved in a couple discussions on the point shooting subject that he participated in. When asked how their scores on various drills and tests compared to sighted shooting, (as it HAS to be easily definable as superior, eh?) nobody was interested in telling times/scores etc. When he posted his video I couldnt believe anyone took it seriously. i was embarrased for him, as you said in your linked blog post.

This is from someone thats shot tens of thousands of rounds practicing point shooting. When I really want to hit something, I use the sights. Funny, they even work on running rabbits and stuff thrown in the air.

His dudes couldn't hit shit.

"Half hip on the run."

But,..wait! He said his training and method was very effective!

[Chuck Haggard]

I run in to people pushing point shooting all the time. Lots of people trying to claim that it is unpossible to see your sights in a gun fight, so much so there are retards posting on Kyle Lamb's YouTube video on the subject telling him he doesn't know anything about "street fights".

The "science" quoted by the people trying to get science-y to prove the validity of their claims is a bunch of that Bruce Siddle bullshit ref supposed changes to the eye and heart rate stuff. I giggled when John Hearne mentioned that crap specifically in his presentation in Memphis

[Hambo]

there are retards posting on Kyle Lamb's YouTube video on the subject telling him he doesn't know anything about "street fights".

I guess Mogadishu doesn't count.

Now on topic, I think. I'm not an instructor, and the vast majority of my shooting has been with people who are dedicated: SWAT cops, competitors, instructors, and people willing to keep training. Right now is my first rodeo with a friend who is really new to defensive handgun shooting. Grad school eats up his time and cash, so he won't be attending a good, intensive school and won't be buying ammo by the case. My plan was to pass on what I have learned over the decades and create a gunfighter. This thread and the Israeli thread made me rethink that. The new plan, which I fully explained to him and which I believe he will follow is dryfire at home three times per week and 1-2 short, low round count sessions each month. He's already seen the benefit of dryfire practice and believes in it. All live fire will be Givens style: two hands and using sights. He prefers condition 3 carry, so for now it has to be Givens-style with the Israeli twist, but that may change as he makes some holster choices. I'm also preaching awareness and will loan him some good books (Left of Bang, Givens, Reitz,etc).

So rather than pound a square peg into a round hole, what I hope is that I can help him reach a point where he will:
1-Carry a gun all the time
2-have a level of proficiency to deal with at least the majority of problems he might encounter
3-continue to train on a regular basis

That's the maximum sustainability he can or will tolerate at this time.

[1slow]

I find it amusing that the most significant thing we have done for shooting efficiency in the last 50 years is how far we have come with sights to enhance our ability to use our eyes to greatly enhance our ability to hit things, yet people want to cling to the ideas of the prior 100 years. I honestly believe the myth's of not being able to use or see a verified sight comes from a time of horribly small and inefficient sights. This is no longer true and I have found if folks are trained with the idea that "you can easily see and focus on a front sight in a fight", and it will make the scary things go away faster if you do, people will do it.

Yes !!!
Lack of good sights has led to 2 myths:
1) You can't/won't use you sights in a hurry/under stress. If they are small and ill defined this may be true,
2) small pistols are inaccurate. They often have small sights (see above) which makes fast accurate shooting more difficult.
Look at how much easier it is to shoot a 640 Pro well (big Trijicon sights) vs. an older J frame with tiny sights.

As you say sights have improved hugely and with this the ease of fast accurate shooting.