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Thread: Is DA/SA Obsolete (In Terms of Sales)?

  1. #221
    Site Supporter 0ddl0t's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10mmfanboy View Post
    Yes, although if you fully let off the trigger during firing, then the first pull is heavier than the first pull is normally after you load the gun.
    Oh really? Darn, I thought the extra heavy trigger was only if you needed a 2nd strike. I guess the search for the best mousetrap continues...

  2. #222
    Site Supporter farscott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0ddl0t View Post
    So I've never really looked into the LEM before, but it sounds like a great compromise. Am I missing something?

    My understanding of the LEM:
    Long double action-like first pull (similar to DA/SA)
    Short reset/short 2nd pull if you don't fully release the trigger (similar to DA/SA 2nd shot)
    If you do fully release the trigger, you get that long double-action like pull again. No need to decock (unlike DA/SA).
    If I had a job where a portion of it involved pointing a pistol at people and I got to the pick the pistol, a P30 LEM would be in my holster. The compromise for the "more margin for error" that LEM offers both when pointing a gun at someone and during drawing and holstering is a pistol that is harder to shoot accurately at speed. Several years with LEM has improved my shooting with DA/SA and SFA platforms. My only issue with the P30 LEM is my inability to detail strip and assemble. My dream pistol is a a P30 LEM that can be detail stripped and assembled with a single punch.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by 10mmfanboy View Post
    Yes, although if you fully let off the trigger during firing, then the first pull is heavier than the first pull is normally after you load the gun.
    That’s not correct. The only time the trigger pull is heavy like a normal double action pull is if the hammer drops (pre-cocked internal hammer piece becomes uncocked) but the slide doesn’t cycle to recock the internal hammer piece. That only normally happens if you have a failure to fire. It’s the double strike capability of the LEM system. If you pull the trigger and the pistol and ammunition function as they should, the action of the pistol will recock the internal components and the trigger pull will continue being light.

    This tends to confuse people in dry fire if they don’t know to cycle the slide after a trigger press. The first pull is the normal LEM pull (light weight but long trigger stroke) but the next pull is heavy like a traditional DAO gun.
    My posts only represent my personal opinion and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or official policies of any employer, past or present. Obvious spelling errors are likely the result of an iPhone keyboard.

  4. #224
    Site Supporter JSGlock34's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0ddl0t View Post
    So I've never really looked into the LEM before, but it sounds like a great compromise.
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Just years one through five on Pistol-Forum.
    Okay, I laughed out loud at this.

    Here's some best of LEM reading to catch up.

    Why I like the LEM as a "street trigger" - Darryl Bolke

    Why the P30 - Ernest Langdon

    Pistol-Training.com P30 Thursday - Todd Green
    "When the phone rang, Parker was in the garage, killing a man."

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by HammerStriker View Post
    They made the transition so that more women could pass qualifications. :|

    The LASD for one did not switch form DA/SA to Striker, because strikers are superior or to save cost. They did it so that more women could successful join the force by making it easier for them to qualify - the 92s were too heavy, too big, and too difficult to manipulate in DA mode for women.
    Why is this a bad thing? Many people of both genders can’t comfortably run a 92F( thus the Vertec). An agency should be commended for adapting the equipment to the users.

    Back to topic- I’m curious how many of those class NDs were from students using unfamiliar guns.

    My anecdotal experience as an RSO is most “normal folk” carry a pocket gun for the 1 in 10 times they do CCW. They never wear full size pistols unless they’re at the range or a class. Since most training courses mandate a service caliber pistol, folks bring the 9mm Glock , order ammo + holster and figure they’re good to go. Then after a week of intensive training , handling a gun they’ve basically never used seriously prior to the course...mental fatigue hits and BAM!

    While there’s solid reasons behind making people bring “real guns” to classes, I wonder if there isn’t a good argument for holding pocket gun courses using .22LR and up. Training people to use a gun they’ll never carry doesn’t seem to make much sense, whereas training around the pocket gun they’ll actually wear makes more sense ( even if it’s not as macho).
    The Minority Marksman.
    "When you meet a swordsman, draw your sword: Do not recite poetry to one who is not a poet."
    -a Ch'an Buddhist axiom.

  6. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10mmfanboy View Post
    Yes, although if you fully let off the trigger during firing, then the first pull is heavier than the first pull is normally after you load the gun.
    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    That’s not correct. The only time the trigger pull is heavy like a normal double action pull is if the hammer drops (pre-cocked internal hammer piece becomes uncocked) but the slide doesn’t cycle to recock the internal hammer piece. That only normally happens if you have a failure to fire. It’s the double strike capability of the LEM system. If you pull the trigger and the pistol and ammunition function as they should, the action of the pistol will recock the internal components and the trigger pull will continue being light.

    This tends to confuse people in dry fire if they don’t know to cycle the slide after a trigger press. The first pull is the normal LEM pull (light weight but long trigger stroke) but the next pull is heavy like a traditional DAO gun.
    This ^^^^

  7. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0ddl0t View Post
    So I've never really looked into the LEM before, but it sounds like a great compromise. Am I missing something?

    My understanding of the LEM:
    Long double action-like first pull (similar to DA/SA)
    Short reset/short 2nd pull if you don't fully release the trigger (similar to DA/SA 2nd shot)
    If you do fully release the trigger, you get that long double-action like pull again. No need to decock (unlike DA/SA).
    No, it is not like DA/SA. it is a short pull DAO, "pre-set" with a long take up. Think of it as hammer fired version of a Glock "Safe Action."

    To simplify this, the LEM pull is the same every shot when the internal hammer is cocked.

    The LEM has a long take up/ slack without any real resistance then you hit the "wall" of the actual trigger pull.

    DA implies the "double action" of pulling the trigger and that same action cocking the hammer or striker. The slack is really not DA because it is not doing anything else. The cocked internal hammer has already pre-set that part of the cycle.

    In practice most people don't fully release the slack and run it as a short DAO.

    If the round fails to fire, and the internal hammer is not cocked by the slide cycling, the system defaults to a true DAO allowing a second strike capability.

    That probably sounds pretty weird. The LEM concept was based on studies by the FBI and German Police agencies indicating that length of pull was more significant in preventing unintentional trigger pulls than weight.

    The LEM is "it's own animal." it requires dedicated practice. DA Revolver shooting helps but otherwise if you want to be good with an LEM you need to stick to LEM only. If you try to switch back and forth between LEM and other trigger systems you will get very frustrated.

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    LEM concept was based on studies by the FBI and German Police agencies indicating that length of pull was more significant in preventing unintentional trigger pulls than weight.
    Not sure about the German Police studies, but my recollection is when we did the deep dive, the supposed FBI “studies” didn’t exist.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Just years one through five on Pistol-Forum.
    Best years of my shooting career.
    Doesn't read posts longer than two paragraphs.

  10. #230
    Member gato naranja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GardoneVT View Post
    While there’s solid reasons behind making people bring “real guns” to classes, I wonder if there isn’t a good argument for holding pocket gun courses using .22LR and up. Training people to use a gun they’ll never carry doesn’t seem to make much sense, whereas training around the pocket gun they’ll actually wear makes more sense ( even if it’s not as macho).
    One instructor not far from me has trained a number of people on (tiny drum roll please) the Ruger SR22... and for some of the same reasons you mention.

    My wife's SR22 has a DA pull that would qualify as "robust," but she likes it well enough to WANT to practice with it. With CCI Mini Mags and reasonable maintenance, it is pretty reliable, though some ammo and/or a build up of rimfire blowback gunk can bring it to grief. I have said my piece to her about carrying such a thing, but it beats nothing.

    gn

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