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Thread: Is DA/SA Obsolete (In Terms of Sales)?

  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    On the range, yes. In totality, no. Admin handling is the bulk of unintended discharges, at least those that cause injury or death. Reversing clearing steps then pulling the trigger is a huge cause.
    Makes sense.

    I always cringe going into or out of a facility where we have to lock our guns up in boxes. I figure it’s only a matter of time before someone cranks off a round. Like the video of the Marshal in El Paso about 15 or so years ago.

  2. #202
    Member 10mmfanboy's Avatar
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    See? It always turns into which is the safest action lol.

    Is TDA dead in sales in 2019? No, not yet, will it ever be the mainstream again? no, no it will not. Is TDA enjoying a slight up tick in sales last few years? yes.

    Probably because people like me who don't like to be forced into the new hotness. Companies releasing firearms that haven't been tested enough before releasing them to the public to find out if it is a safe design or not probably has a lot to do with an up tick in sales for TDA.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by 10mmfanboy View Post
    See? It always turns into which is the safest action lol.

    Is TDA dead in sales in 2019? No, not yet, will it ever be the mainstream again? no, no it will not. Is TDA enjoying a slight up tick in sales last few years? yes.

    Probably because people like me who don't like to be forced into the new hotness. Companies releasing firearms that haven't been tested enough before releasing them to the public to find out if it is a safe design or not probably has a lot to do with an up tick in sales for TDA.
    Maybe, but I think the biggest driving factor of an uptick in sales of TDA pistols is Mr. Langdon's endorsement of them. I can't tell you how many YouTubers I've seen switch back to TDA and reference Ernie's abilities with the trigger mechanism. They repeat his talking points almost verbatim and even use his PX4 cc Langdon edition. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, we live in a capitalistic economy and I myself am a part of a sales organization. I know a valuable sales person when I see one, and I'm telling you, Ernie's pitch has sent a ripple effect across the gun community. He is worth every penny he gets from Beretta, hats off to him, I'm impressed. Beretta struck gold with him.
    Last edited by HammerStriker; 11-06-2019 at 12:44 AM.

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by HammerStriker View Post
    Maybe, but I think the biggest driving factor of an uptick in sales of TDA pistols is Mr. Langdon's endorsement of them. I can't tell you how many YouTubers I've seen switch back to TDA and reference Ernie's abilities with the trigger mechanism. They repeat his talking points almost verbatim and even use his PX4 cc Langdon edition. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, we live in a capitalistic economy and I myself am a part of a sales organization. I know a valuable sales person when I see one, and I'm telling you, Ernie's pitch has sent a ripple effect across the gun community. He is worth every penny he gets from Beretta, hats off to him, I'm impressed. Beretta struck gold with him.
    I finally got a Beretta, 12 years after I got out of the military, this spring. I thought it was going to be nothing but a range toy. Until I learned there was thin grips, G kit conversions, and lighter hammer springs. The commercial M9 morphed a bit, but now wears LTT grips, G kit, and a trigger job in a bag. It's my EDC and I shoot the wheels off it. It was followed not long later by a 92 compact, set up the same sans the trigger job. I got bit by the DA/SA bug because it's not the "norm" and I wanted to master it.

    I pick up a PX4 compact tomorrow to continue to add to the madness. I don't see going back to striker fired any time soon.

  5. #205
    Site Supporter 0ddl0t's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinmove_ View Post
    The only real downside in my mind with the SCD is the price of admission.
    And the limited number of applications. I would love a SCD for my striker Sigs...


    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    In the Front Sight data, about 1/3 Negligent Discharges happen holstering, about 1/3 drawing, with the balance all over the place. Seems like we mostly focus on the holstering discharges in these discussions on PF.
    Good point.


    Front Sight's data on NDs *that caused injury*

    #1 (decocked) Sig 229 discharged on the draw

    #2 (off safe) 1911 Gold Cup discharged upon holstering into improperly sized holster.

    #3 1911 Para Ordnance discharged into support hand during the draw/presentation

    #4 Glock 35 discharged upon fast reholstering

    #5 (decocked) Sig 22x discharged on draw

    #6 (decocked) Sig 22x discharged on draw

    #7 (off safe) 1911 discharged upon holstering

    #8 (off safe) 1911 discharged upon holstering

    #9 (Serpa) XD discharged on the draw

    #10 (Serpa) XD discharged on the draw

    #11 (Serpa) 1911 discharged on the draw

    #12 Glock 34 discharged with finger on trigger between strings of fire

    #13 M&P discharged on the draw

    #14 XDM discharged on the draw

    #15 Glock 24 discharged while clearing malfunction with finger on trigger

    #16 Glock 22 discharged on the draw

    #17 (off safe) 1911 discharged upon holstering

    #18 Glock 19 discharged upon holstering

    #19 (off safe) 1911 discharged upon holstering

    #20 XDM discharged upon difficulty holstering

    #21 M&P discharged into support hand during the draw/presentation

    #22 7yard rifle splatter/ricochet struck student in neck

    #23 PDQ discharged on the draw

    #24 M&P discharged upon holstering

    #25 (decocked) CZ75 discharged upon holstering

    #26 M&P discharged upon holstering

    Interestingly, almost all of the NDs came towards the end of multi-day classes. Anyway, the breakdown by action:

    10 discharges into leg on the draw
    2 discharges into hand during presentation
    11 discharges into leg reholstering
    2 discharges into leg/foot during administrative handling
    1 ricochet/splatter that I wouldn't count as ND...

    Quote Originally Posted by HammerStriker View Post
    Agreed, but how many cases are there actually where shooters have an ND after forgetting to de-cock? I don't know the answer and doubt anyone really does, I'm guessing (hoping) its pretty uncommon.
    From front sight's data:

    DA/SA: 4 NDs (16%) all decocked. 3 on draw, 1 while holstering

    SA: 7 NDs (28%). 5 while holstering, 1 on draw, 1 on presentation

    SFA: 14 NDs (56%). 5 while holstering, 6 on the draw, 1 on presentation, 2 during administrative handling


    We do know that they had 7 NDs in their first 12 years (only 1 SFA) and 18 in their second 12 years (13 SFA) which would suggest strikers are less safe, though it may be that they're serving 150% more customers now and most are now using SFA... Unfortunately, we just don't have the base rates to know what percentage of students used TDA/SFA/SA (and how much the trend has changed in 24 years).
    Last edited by 0ddl0t; 11-06-2019 at 03:20 AM.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by 0ddl0t View Post
    And the limited number of applications. I would love a SCD for my striker Sigs...



    Good point.


    Front Sight's data on NDs *that caused injury*

    #1 (decocked) Sig 229 discharged on the draw

    #2 (off safe) 1911 Gold Cup discharged upon holstering into improperly sized holster.

    #3 1911 Para Ordnance discharged into support hand during the draw/presentation

    #4 Glock 35 discharged upon fast reholstering

    #5 (decocked) Sig 22x discharged on draw

    #6 (decocked) Sig 22x discharged on draw

    #7 (off safe) 1911 discharged upon holstering

    #8 (off safe) 1911 discharged upon holstering

    #9 (Serpa) XD discharged on the draw

    #10 (Serpa) XD discharged on the draw

    #11 (Serpa) 1911 discharged on the draw

    #12 Glock 34 discharged with finger on trigger between strings of fire

    #13 M&P discharged on the draw

    #14 XDM discharged on the draw

    #15 Glock 24 discharged while clearing malfunction with finger on trigger

    #16 Glock 22 discharged on the draw

    #17 (off safe) 1911 discharged upon holstering

    #18 Glock 19 discharged upon holstering

    #19 (off safe) 1911 discharged upon holstering

    #20 XDM discharged upon difficulty holstering

    #21 M&P discharged into support hand during the draw/presentation

    #22 7yard rifle splatter/ricochet struck student in neck

    #23 PDQ discharged on the draw

    #24 M&P discharged upon holstering

    #25 (decocked) CZ75 discharged upon holstering

    #26 M&P discharged upon holstering

    Interestingly, almost all of the NDs came towards the end of multi-day classes. Anyway, the breakdown by action:

    10 discharges into leg on the draw
    2 discharges into hand during presentation
    11 discharges into leg reholstering
    2 discharges into leg/foot during administrative handling
    1 ricochet/splatter that I wouldn't count as ND...


    From front sight's data:

    DA/SA: 4 NDs (16%) all decocked. 3 on draw, 1 while holstering

    SA: 7 NDs (28%). 5 while holstering, 1 on draw, 1 on presentation

    SFA: 14 NDs (56%). 5 while holstering, 6 on the draw, 1 on presentation, 2 during administrative handling


    We do know that they had 7 NDs in their first 12 years (only 1 SFA) and 18 in their second 12 years (13 SFA) which would suggest strikers are less safe, though it may be that they're serving 150% more customers now and most are now using SFA... Unfortunately, we just don't have the base rates to know what percentage of students used TDA/SFA/SA (and how much the trend has changed in 24 years).
    So, the only gun to not go off during holstering, when placed in its proper safe holstering condition is the 1911.
    Last edited by Bucky; 11-06-2019 at 05:57 AM.

  7. #207
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    Thanks for the Front Sight data.

    Quote Originally Posted by 0ddl0t View Post
    We do know that they had 7 NDs in their first 12 years (only 1 SFA) and 18 in their second 12 years (13 SFA) which would suggest strikers are less safe, though it may be that they're serving 150% more customers now and most are now using SFA...
    Perhaps as they became more known as a training facility, the quality of their students decreased.

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    . We had a ND at a steel match a few years ago when a guy holstered his gun in a floppy, bubba-modified holster. It didn't end as well as this one though. The guy shot himself through the thigh (superficial), calf (superficial), and foot (NOT superficial).
    I think I know him from racing. Nice man, does things a little differently, for good and ill (example, autocrossing a Crown Vic) . He told me he’d had an nd at a steel match. I got the sense from talking to him he faults the weapon more than the holster, but I might have misunderstood.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by 0ddl0t View Post
    . We do know that they had 7 NDs in their first 12 years (only 1 SFA) and 18 in their second 12 years (13 SFA) which would suggest strikers are less safe, though it may be that they're serving 150% more customers now and most are now using SFA... Unfortunately, we just don't have the base rates to know what percentage of students used TDA/SFA/SA (and how much the trend has changed in 24 years).
    Good work, thank you for summarizing so nicely. Although we don't have base rates, we can use other credible data to supplement Front Sight's. It is pretty well known that when the LA Police department switched from Beretta 92s to M&Ps NDs soared. The Inspector General's report is accessible here: https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/d...rge+Report.pdf

    I'm a SFA fan and own one too. I do not think SFAs are inherently unsafe, but I do think that when put in the hands of infallible human beings (which we all are), the chances for a mishap are greater than with DA/SA , or pistols with an external safety. The inspector generals findings were that the M&Ps were not malfunctioning, rather, the human beings were by making mistakes. We all make mistakes no matter how hard we train/practice. Of corse it is not the gun, but I do not believe anyone is infallible, so there is a place for mechanical safety mechanism in my mind. DA/SA carry more safety features than a Glock because of the heavy first trigger pull, it's kind of obvious I think...
    Last edited by HammerStriker; 11-06-2019 at 09:58 AM.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by HammerStriker View Post
    Good work, thank you for summarizing so nicely. Although we don't have base rates, we can use other credible data to supplement Front Sight's. It is pretty well known that when the LA Police department switched from Beretta 92s to M&Ps NDs soared. The Inspector General's report is accessible here: https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/d...rge+Report.pdf

    I'm a SFA fan and own one too. I do not think SFAs are inherently unsafe, but I do think that when put in the hands of infallible human beings (which we all are), the chances for a mishap are greater than with DA/SA or pistols with an external safety.
    My recollection may be imperfect, but I thought the ND rate soared when they transitioned to the M&P striker, but went back to the previous rate post the transition?
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

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