Is DA/SA Obsolete (In Terms of Sales)?

[oldtexan]

Having listened to a bunch of content from guys like Bolke and Langdon on this, I get the impression that the relevance curve for DA/SA is something like the inverse of Caleb's relevance curve for revolvers. Thoughts?

David, I'd like to hear your thoughts on why the DA/SA curve is an inverted U.

Watching this interesting video from Caleb, it's clear to me that when he uses the term utility (at least for the shooter with middling skills), he must mean utility relative to other types of handguns, as opposed to utility in an absolute sense. If he meant utility in an absolute sense, the utility curve would seem unlikely to trend downward as skill increases.

It would be very interesting to compare a set of absolute curves for a variety of types of concealed handguns.

[UNM1136]

DA/SA will always have a warm spot in my heart, as it was my third (fourth?getting old)duty piece (my first POLICE piece, I carried a M66/M19 and Glock 21 privately first)

The market appears to be going SFA...I think the DA/SA will have another 80-90 years before it is the dinosaur. (My longest serving duty piece was a 1911)

pat

[oldtexan]

I think this might be an abstract for the aforementioned German police study.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10....72006778606813

I haven't accessed it because I'm not sure it would be worth the $36 fee to do so.

[OlongJohnson]

This thread has given me the idea to compile all the background docs, research papers, reports, opinions, etc. in one post. I think I have most of them or at least know where to find them. There have been several threads in recent months where even people who have or had at one time a working knowledge of them have kinda been collectively scratching their heads about the details.

If I do that, I'll even spend the money for the ones behind a paywall. I think the knowledge is cheap in the big picture, at least for me. No posting docs that are behind paywalls, but certainly links to where everything can be found.

[OlongJohnson]

I've shot with a lot CBP guys over the years and I can't recall one person who had anything good to say about the P2K LEM. They're difficult to shoot well. Bottom line.

I seem to remember @HCM saying a few of them tried to hang onto their USPc's for as long as possible after the P2Ks were issued, but I was thinking the USPc's were LEM, too.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/axis

plural axes\ ˈak-​ˌsēz \

[HCM]

I seem to remember @HCM saying a few of them tried to hang onto their USPc's for as long as possible after the P2Ks were issued, but I was thinking the USPc's were LEM, too.




https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/axis

plural axes\ ˈak-​ˌsēz \

Those with USPC’s do try and hold on to them. They have nicer /smoother triggers and and a slightly different recoil impulse than the P2Ks.

The fact is any G 19 size gun in 40 is hard to shoot well. It’s even harder to shoot when you were shooting hotter than normal 155 or 135 grain 40 ammo.

[10mmfanboy]

Anyone lucky enough to own that one gun that you feel like you just can't miss with? That is the p2000 for me. Ergo's are meh, 3 dot meprolight sights which I hate, and a ho hum trigger. Apparently none of that stuff matters on how accurate a pistol is for me. I have beretta's with way better triggers and sights yet still the p2000 works best for me.

[Bucky]

Anyone lucky enough to own that one gun that you feel like you just can't miss with? That is the p2000 for me. Ergo's are meh, 3 dot meprolight sights which I hate, and a ho hum trigger. Apparently none of that stuff matters on how accurate a pistol is for me. I have beretta's with way better triggers and sights yet still the p2000 works best for me.

My P2000 is the gun I struggle with the most. It’s a great firearm though, and sized just right. Glad it works out for you.

[LSP552]

What would get me enthused is a family of DA/SA pistols, covering the spectrum from compact carry to duty to competition, with HK reliability, CZ or better ergos, great triggers, polymer construction, and a optics ready configuration. Extra points if they have a variant that will shoot .45 Super.

Let me know when you find that! I’d buy a few sets....

[LSP552]

It was either non-public, and/ or was basically a regurgitation of the German police study.

Having a study implying that length of trigger pull was more important than wait is probably not what you want floating around when you’re trying to get Congress to give you money 15 or 20,000 Glocks.

Dusting off ancient memories, it did exist. I was a exposed as a young LSP firearms instructor in the early 80s. IIRC, it was for official agency use only and avail upon request. SIG pistols pretty much ruled at the end of the revolver era and many agencies were very anti Glock in the beginning, including the FBI at the time. And that HCM dude is pretty smart when it comes to politics and why that report isn’t widely available. We have all seen different administrations make a 180 due to politics and often just on whims by people with influence.

I will say that the rise in striker popularity also coincides with an increase in remains in law enforcement. I do believe that a lack of hand strength makes it easier to reach a basic level of “qualification” with a striker over a TDA.

We can say training matters, and it does, but lots of places saw increases in NDs after moving to strikers. Striker fired pistols are basically and Administrator’s excuse for the need for less training cost and time. It’s pretty dang funny when you think about it.

I personally don’t think it takes anymore time to teach competence with a TDA instead of a striker. It just a difference in how training is structured and what gets incorporated into various drills. But if you lack hand strength, it’s easier for you with a striker just you can’t work a TDA if you can’t manage a 10 lb pull.

Just my opinion and experience, as someone who was involved in institutional size training for both TDA and strikers for a couple of decades.