Page 3 of 31 FirstFirst 1234513 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 308

Thread: Israeli carry - a short experiment

  1. #21
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    SW Louisiana
    Quote Originally Posted by nyeti View Post
    I'd like to work with her on skills.

    I always find it amusing of all the fun made of the Israeli's and condition of their firearms.....because the US military would never be so derp as to have soldiers in the most advanced military in the world carry in this manner.
    This. I always find if sort of funny to hear everyone talk about how bad the Israeli method is (horrible mis-naming, IMO) given the number of well-respected agencies who have used it with great success both in the past and in the present. As alway, just because something different comes along it doesn't automatically make what came before suddenly worthless. I'll take a well-trained Israeli method shooter over a poorly trained Modern Technique shooter pretty much any time, and if they are both poorly trained (all too common) the Israeli side has a number of things to recommend it.
    "PLAN FOR YOUR TRAINING TO BE A REFLECTION OF REAL LIFE INSTEAD OF HOPING THAT REAL LIFE WILL BE A REFLECTION OF YOUR TRAINING!"
    0
     

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by nyeti View Post
    I always find it amusing of all the fun made of the Israeli's and condition of their firearms.....because the US military would never be so derp as to have soldiers in the most advanced military in the world carry in this manner.
    ***Thread derail, I'll split the thread off if this gets involved***

    The way I see it, we in the US military idolized the Israelis for a long while until we reaped the numerous benefits of over a decade of continuous combat in two theaters. Combine that with the explosion in private firearms training and yes, Americans who take training seriously are going to roll their eyes at some questionable Youtube videos and tactics shown on said videos. I am fully aware that the Israelis have pulled off some dazzlingly well ran ops. That being said, I think that AIPAC is Israel's main strength as airpower is the way to win in the Middle East.
    #RESIST
    0
     

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Suvorov View Post
    It only gets worse with age.
    No, I just started asking what their mom looks like.....:

    On thread drift....what the Israeli's have actually been good at is how the manage conflicts and allow a lot of leeway from those in the field to get jobs done. They were very fluid and adaptive to changing conditions. Some of that is changing, but it is why they won in the days when they should not have on paper.

    Stupidity on YouTube is not a Israeli only thing, nor is marketing stupid things. Carrying firearms with no round chambered is hardly their invention either and was truthfully adapted from those military folks who were trained and influenced in places like the United States and England. The biggest difference is that the US population is heavily influenced from US law enforcement. In Israel everyone essentially serves in the military, so it would make sense to work off a means of carry that a majority of folks are familiar with........even if it is not the most optimal way to go.
    Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
    "If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".
    0
     

  4. #24
    I'll need to increase my fire damage insurance at the end of this post, but here goes; from what I've seen of non-dedicated shooters (which are most folks ) , most of them are a bigger danger to themselves then they are to a bad guy.

    Condition 3 wouldn't be such a bad idea, frankly. I don't wish to come off as a holier-then-thou snob, but maybe one shooter in ten has both the willingness and the ability to seek advanced training. The rest go about life armed with a .380 Kahr loaded with Glaser's -but only if 'they're going to a bad area'.

    Those folks-no offense-are why Condition 3 is a good idea. Most folks will shoot recreationally and admin handle their guns far more often then actually using them defensively. If you wouldn't hand the keys of a Mercedes SL65 to someone uninterested in a drivers license , why should we insist that people with no interest in skill improvement carry with a live round?
    The Minority Marksman.
    "When you meet a swordsman, draw your sword: Do not recite poetry to one who is not a poet."
    -a Ch'an Buddhist axiom.
    0
     

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by GardoneVT View Post
    Most folks will shoot recreationally and admin handle their guns far more often then actually using them defensively.
    An excellent point, so often lost in these carry-mode debates. People seem to often only consider the narrow context of a gunfight as the only frame of reference, not the totality of gun ownership as it fits into your risk assessment. Every time you admin handle the gun, there is a small but non-zero risk of a ND. On the flip side, when you carry chamber empty, there is a small but non-zero risk you might be in a gunfight, and carry mode might matter in that gunfight. It doesn't seem possible that the "correct" answer has to be exactly the same for all people in all circumstances.
    0
     

  6. #26
    Site Supporter Tamara's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    In free-range, non-GMO, organic, fair trade Broad Ripple, IN
    Quote Originally Posted by nyeti View Post
    Stupidity on YouTube is not a Israeli only thing, nor is marketing stupid things.
    Books. Bikes. Boomsticks.

    I can explain it to you. I can’t understand it for you.
    0
     

  7. #27
    GO through ECQC Israeli carry and then get back to me.

    I worked with chamber empty with a 1911 in the 1970s. My conclusion was that 1 handed I was more likely to: foul the gun on clothing, not get it chambered and running, induce a malfunction etc.... Two handed it was much slower to get a good 2 hand grip on the pistol and get an accurate series of shots.
    If you are just trying to make a loud noise drawing with 2 hands and shooting 1 handed, it can be closer in speed to a chambered draw and shoot. Where your hands meet you grip the top of the slide drive the gun forward ripping the slide back and shoot once it chambers.
    Israeli draw much harder to do from CCW than from an open carry war belt, especially 1 handed.

    Also in class where I have seen Israeli draw done 1 handed many people behind the line were in danger from the angle of the muzzle. The shooting was also rushed and not accurate.

    I would not do empty chamber with any current well made service auto. If you are stuck with a weapon that is not mechanically safe carried chamber loaded then you have it to do.

    YMMV.
    1
     

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by 1slow View Post
    GO through ECQC Israeli carry and then get back to me.
    ECQC is a series of, well, ECQC events all weekend long. There is some chance that the maybe one gunfight you will be in in your life will resemble that.

    There is no doubt that some close quarters gunfights are better served with chamber loaded carry. I noticed that your rationale is missing the other half of the equation: the ND side. There are some people who can reasonably conclude that their odds of being in CQ life or death battle with a criminal are lower than their lifetime odds of an ND through admin handling. Depends on where you live, where you travel, and other lifestyle circumstances. Not everyone works as an undercover narcotics cop. A lot of people live in quiet suburbs. The odds of being in a gunfight are not the same for everyone, and especially being in the subset of gunfights where this matters.

    Carry mode is a trade-off, like many others. You'd have a harder time with AIWB carry if you only had one hand available too.
    0
     

  9. #29
    Member T.Stahl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    near Stuttgart
    Quote Originally Posted by GardoneVT View Post
    I'll need to increase my fire damage insurance at the end of this post, but here goes; from what I've seen of non-dedicated shooters (which are most folks ) , most of them are a bigger danger to themselves then they are to a bad guy.

    Condition 3 wouldn't be such a bad idea, frankly. I don't wish to come off as a holier-then-thou snob, but maybe one shooter in ten has both the willingness and the ability to seek advanced training. The rest go about life armed with a .380 Kahr loaded with Glaser's -but only if 'they're going to a bad area'.

    Those folks-no offense-are why Condition 3 is a good idea. Most folks will shoot recreationally and admin handle their guns far more often then actually using them defensively. If you wouldn't hand the keys of a Mercedes SL65 to someone uninterested in a drivers license , why should we insist that people with no interest in skill improvement carry with a live round?
    I agree with your assessment that most gun owners are not dedicated to shooting, learning to shoot, getting the skills...
    Even on this side of the Pond - where you have to prove that you are, indeed, a shooter, training "regularly and successfully" at least 18 times a year to get your first gun or n-th gun of certain kinds* - there are a lot of gun owners I'd rather not see carrying or carrying a loaded gun.
    I take your last sentence as a thought provoking statement to start a discussion.
    0
     

  10. #30
    Site Supporter Tamara's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    In free-range, non-GMO, organic, fair trade Broad Ripple, IN
    Quote Originally Posted by GardoneVT View Post
    Condition 3 wouldn't be such a bad idea, frankly. I don't wish to come off as a holier-then-thou snob, but maybe one shooter in ten has both the willingness and the ability to seek advanced training. The rest go about life...
    ...miraculously not shooting themselves despite your new-found disdain for the proles you were so recently among.

    This is philosophically no different than the "There'll be shootouts over parking spaces if we allow CCW!" argument. (Or its new variations, "There'll be shootouts over parking spaces if we remove the training requirement!" or "...if we go to Constitutional Carry!")
    Books. Bikes. Boomsticks.

    I can explain it to you. I can’t understand it for you.
    1
     

User Tag List

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •